T3: Hooked.
- Thread starter Special
- Start date
Bitrot said:
Not being defensive (I welcome rebuttals), but here are my rebuttals:
1] Coding might be hard, but it's a basic physics problem. I don't think it's too hard to code in comparison to other things that have been done in other games. Balancing is always an issue when you add in a new weapon.
2] What fits / doesn't fit in the universe? Going from T1 -> T2, Bioderms were thrown in. Don't you think they didn't fit in too well at first? In any creative endeavour like game-making, you can make anything 'fit'.
3] I don't think it would look ridiculous. The way I envision it places it as one of the most graceful things you could see in Tribes. Don't think of clunky grappling hooks, imagine thin tensile ropes of future-steel that is hardly noticable. Kind of what Luke used to cross that chasm in Star Wars, actually. The combination of high-speeds inherent in skiing plus nearly instantaneous direction changes... *shrug* I think that would be badass.
Sir Lucius
Veteran XX
You'd definatly have to do it bionic commando style, that's a given.
For example, you press and hold the fire button, when you release the fire your cable drops to slack. Then pressing fire retracts, releasing cuts the cable.
The other way I can think of is You press to fire, relase to retract, press and hold to drop to slack (stop retracting), and release to cut the cable.
Something gimmicky you could add is the ability to adjust your slack with the mouse wheel.
Another gimicky idea kind of, you have a limited ammount of cable (kind of like ammo). The longer a shot you fire, the more you use up.
I'm just playing with ideas as I go along here.
Fire to shoot cable, release to drop to slack after a hit otherwise continue to spew cable (if it has nothing it auto retracts). Press middle mouse to cut cable, wheel to adjust slack...er....wait ok let me organize my thoughts:
I'm not saying this is how it SHOULD be done, I'm just trying to combine ease of use with a high potential of skill. So the following isn't absolute or idea highjack stealing takeover etc, and feel free to bash me on any point I make. I'm just liking the grapple idea all of a sudden so I want to write my thoughts down.
* Cable has a maximum length. This is pretty much a given.
>Option: Further the distance the cable travels the further to the ground it gets. That's not to say it's like a grenade arc or anything, I would hope the gun has a little bit of power, but it will just make it harder to hit objects further away and add more skill. Basically we get to witness the effects of gravity.
* Press and hold fire to lunch the grapple. Releaseing the fire button will turn on the Breaks stoping the shot. If the hook connects to a hookable object you still must manually stop it.
>Option: Hook retracts automatically on a miss. Other wise the player must procede to do it manually.
>>Option: A cable grapple can be disced mid air. I would think this would render it useless as any momentum is based from the grapple itself. I'd say that should render the cable into a slack state.
* Pressing and holding the fire button again retracts the cable. Releaseing stops retraction (one may easily adjust the sling shot effect this way)
>Option: It may be better to have a the release fire in this step unlock the hook and retract the cable (freeing you).
>>Option: You can add mouse wheel dependecies here. Based on upper option, mouse wheel up will begin retracting your cable, mouse wheel down to stop (this is not a scroll, just a simple click). Mouse wheel down will add slack, mouse wheel up to stop.
*> Cable release variation: Rather than having grapples release and cable retract it may just be easier to have the cables cut. Grapgically it may look silly to have these thing flying around in a whiplash after someone catupults their momentum off of a swing.
I hope any of that made sense :\
Also a little off topic, but the game should include wall crashing damage -- if you hit a wall at 400 mph it should squash you and you should take damage. They didn't have this in tribes 2 for some reason (probably didn't think you'd go fast enough).
Oh and one final thought -- maybe just allow all this to be customized via binds. Have a default script set it up but allow it to be easily adjusted. Then people can figure out their own damn config and make it as simple or complex as they want it :]
For example, you press and hold the fire button, when you release the fire your cable drops to slack. Then pressing fire retracts, releasing cuts the cable.
The other way I can think of is You press to fire, relase to retract, press and hold to drop to slack (stop retracting), and release to cut the cable.
Something gimmicky you could add is the ability to adjust your slack with the mouse wheel.
Another gimicky idea kind of, you have a limited ammount of cable (kind of like ammo). The longer a shot you fire, the more you use up.
I'm just playing with ideas as I go along here.
Fire to shoot cable, release to drop to slack after a hit otherwise continue to spew cable (if it has nothing it auto retracts). Press middle mouse to cut cable, wheel to adjust slack...er....wait ok let me organize my thoughts:
I'm not saying this is how it SHOULD be done, I'm just trying to combine ease of use with a high potential of skill. So the following isn't absolute or idea highjack stealing takeover etc, and feel free to bash me on any point I make. I'm just liking the grapple idea all of a sudden so I want to write my thoughts down.
* Cable has a maximum length. This is pretty much a given.
>Option: Further the distance the cable travels the further to the ground it gets. That's not to say it's like a grenade arc or anything, I would hope the gun has a little bit of power, but it will just make it harder to hit objects further away and add more skill. Basically we get to witness the effects of gravity.
* Press and hold fire to lunch the grapple. Releaseing the fire button will turn on the Breaks stoping the shot. If the hook connects to a hookable object you still must manually stop it.
>Option: Hook retracts automatically on a miss. Other wise the player must procede to do it manually.
>>Option: A cable grapple can be disced mid air. I would think this would render it useless as any momentum is based from the grapple itself. I'd say that should render the cable into a slack state.
* Pressing and holding the fire button again retracts the cable. Releaseing stops retraction (one may easily adjust the sling shot effect this way)
>Option: It may be better to have a the release fire in this step unlock the hook and retract the cable (freeing you).
>>Option: You can add mouse wheel dependecies here. Based on upper option, mouse wheel up will begin retracting your cable, mouse wheel down to stop (this is not a scroll, just a simple click). Mouse wheel down will add slack, mouse wheel up to stop.
*> Cable release variation: Rather than having grapples release and cable retract it may just be easier to have the cables cut. Grapgically it may look silly to have these thing flying around in a whiplash after someone catupults their momentum off of a swing.
I hope any of that made sense :\
Also a little off topic, but the game should include wall crashing damage -- if you hit a wall at 400 mph it should squash you and you should take damage. They didn't have this in tribes 2 for some reason (probably didn't think you'd go fast enough).
Oh and one final thought -- maybe just allow all this to be customized via binds. Have a default script set it up but allow it to be easily adjusted. Then people can figure out their own damn config and make it as simple or complex as they want it :]
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Sir Lucius
Veteran XX
Bitrot said:
Back in september a lot of people talked about this and I thought it was stupid too back then.
But the way Special described it in this post wasn't so much that it'd be used for rediculos stuff like have heavies taxi on shrikes or people shooting each other to grapple stop them (which I don't think I'd be able to stand), but more as an extra dimension of movement. And in my opinion, freedom of movement is mostly what tribes is about.
See, it's an intersting idea b/c jet's and skiing only cover part of your momental freedom (z axis and speed). The hook would add a new freedom -- that of direction.
I've thought about the balance issues, and I think from what I've seen presented here they would not be hard to work out. You make it easy to use but take skill to master. This was skiing tribes 1. Everyone knows how to ski now (almost everyone) so we need a new hook (haha, get it?) to master.
Coding, like Special said is just a physics problem. We can emulate gravity pretty easy, we've already got momentum (tribes 1 and 2), now we just add direction. I've seen similar things done in java applets so it would really be that hard. And since it's player based, netcoding should be too much of a problem.
Coding the actual graple line? All it is really is a spline right? We had those in tribes 2. I don't think they'll have TOO much trouble with the modern technology we have with videocards today.
The Q2 grapple was frigging awesome. I had a blast in that game mostly due to the grapple hook in my arsenal. The only way I could see this working to the benefit of Tribes is if it doesn't work on terrain. In other words you can fire the thing into walls and objects like that. If you were able to use it on terrain I think it'd be kind of retarded.
Sir Lucius
Veteran XX
RenGen said:
I think this is pretty much how everyone feels.
yes to grappling hook! (Quake 2 hook was perfect)
the grapple should have a maximum of 500ms "hook" time before it's released
the reason for this is it encourages accuracy, multiple grappling for perfection (which also drains jets)
removes the possibility of people "beacon hanging" with the grapple for long periods of time
the grapple should take off a bit of health (maybe the same as 1 blaster shot, and something like 8 grapples to kill somebody)
it could be a fun "melee" weapon, as it was embarassing to get killed by the hook in quake 2
it's debateable whether you should be able to hook the ground or not, I think it should be beta tested, and whichever turns out to be more fun + harder should be used (for the long run)
i don't want to see mappers adding 50 rocks to a map just so they may grapple around the entire map w/o hooking terrain
adding the grapple would also add MANY new dimensions to tribes
you could have the indoor speed of quake, and the outdoor speed of tribes.
What more could you want?
Maps in huge cities, or indoor maps with large bases (enough room to grapple around quickly) that are actually played. Spiderman type cities, fortresses miles up in the sky, which require precision grappling to survive and capture the flag.
It should be like Bionic Commando, and I don't think you should be able to fire it again until it completely retracts itself (i.e: longer firing delay depending on the distance fired)
It's debatable though, and would need to be tested in game.
I would LOVE a grapple in Tribes.
It would add a 4th dimension to Tribes, in my opinion.
final edit: The grapple should NOT take up a weapon slot (i.e: you can still fire weapon while hooked onto somebody)
inclusion not exclusion
the grapple should have a maximum of 500ms "hook" time before it's released
the reason for this is it encourages accuracy, multiple grappling for perfection (which also drains jets)
removes the possibility of people "beacon hanging" with the grapple for long periods of time
the grapple should take off a bit of health (maybe the same as 1 blaster shot, and something like 8 grapples to kill somebody)
it could be a fun "melee" weapon, as it was embarassing to get killed by the hook in quake 2
it's debateable whether you should be able to hook the ground or not, I think it should be beta tested, and whichever turns out to be more fun + harder should be used (for the long run)
i don't want to see mappers adding 50 rocks to a map just so they may grapple around the entire map w/o hooking terrain
adding the grapple would also add MANY new dimensions to tribes
you could have the indoor speed of quake, and the outdoor speed of tribes.
What more could you want?
Maps in huge cities, or indoor maps with large bases (enough room to grapple around quickly) that are actually played. Spiderman type cities, fortresses miles up in the sky, which require precision grappling to survive and capture the flag.
It should be like Bionic Commando, and I don't think you should be able to fire it again until it completely retracts itself (i.e: longer firing delay depending on the distance fired)
It's debatable though, and would need to be tested in game.
I would LOVE a grapple in Tribes.
It would add a 4th dimension to Tribes, in my opinion.
final edit: The grapple should NOT take up a weapon slot (i.e: you can still fire weapon while hooked onto somebody)
inclusion not exclusion
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i think its a very cool idea and would be a great addition to the fast pace of tribes, but u'd need some kinda structure's setup to grabble on to. it might be annoying to dodge all that crap, but i dunno, maybe u can do it in a way that they could be avoidable.. like u can pass through the object as if it wasnt there so it wont bb u, but u could still grapple on to it. the wide open terrain rocks in tribes imo, wouldnt want to ruin that with places to grapple on to.. have like giant floating spheres that are made for grappling, but they dont bb u 
Sir Lucius
Veteran XX
I dunno, an off hand grapling hook might be too powerful. It wasn't in base q2 ctf for a reason. Actually you may have been able to switch after hooking, I don't recall.
Anyways, we all have differnt ideas of what this should be and I see no input from the weasal the panda or menzo...so chances are if they're were going to put it in, it's in, and if they hadn't planned on it then we'll never see it.
Anyways, we all have differnt ideas of what this should be and I see no input from the weasal the panda or menzo...so chances are if they're were going to put it in, it's in, and if they hadn't planned on it then we'll never see it.
Would be very cool. I would love to see ragdoll physics implemented with this idea as well. Meaning your feet would actually swing/bend in back of you as you make your Tarzan-esque swing at insane speeds. Grappling hook routes would be made...
It could add a new dimension of skill needed -- just like skiing did.
It could add a new dimension of skill needed -- just like skiing did.
love the idea, but it would have to be done right to work. What's 'right' imo is any feature that can successfully take the game to a new level by enhancing the gameplay that has already been proven. I guess I'm trying to say push the game from the inside out (if that makes any sense)
Grappling hook using up your jets? interesting. I didn't like the idea at first, but it could work. Before I suggest something, here was my concern: I personally don't want to see cappers hitting speeds that kill gameplay...if it got to the point there is no way in hell of stopping them (or for that matter, even seeing them) that would suck. Then again, I don't like the idea of speed caps either, is it possible to merge the hook and the speed without screwing gameplay? maybe.
The following is not an answer to that btw.
How about this:
say the hook operated just like a weapon (meaning: until it's released, you can't fire) Someone mentioned that it should drain jets...in a sense, it could, but imo, not when you first release it. Picture this: left mouse button shoots the hook out at a high rate of speed. OK, you've shot the hook out, it's hit an object, here's an ide
-Even though the hook is stuck on an object, you won't 'swing' unless you use your jets. Why? think of a fishing reel...you've caught a fish, but you haven't applied any tension to the line so you're basically just extending the line as the fish swims off...in this case, as soon as the hook connects; you have become the fish and the object has become the fisherman. The only way to stop the line reeling, is to hit the jets and apply tension to the line with the effect being added momentum and a 'swing'. Of course, the amount of swing depends on how much energy you have in the jets. No energy? No swing.
Now, back to being hooked onto the object. Picture this:
JETS APPLIED = YOU REEL IN (say at half the speed you reel out)
JETS NOT APPLIED = LINE AUTOMATICALLY REELS YOU OUT
Once you have that concept in mind, you could actually swing around an object a number of times by controlling the line and your jets (if you wanted) Here's the goal of it though, reeling in would actually be like applying weight to yourself as you swing, basically you could control the speed of your release. There's more to it than that but my brain hurts like a mtf right now so heres a sum up:
left button: fire hook
left button: release hook
right button pressed while attached: reel in
nothing pressed while attached: reel out
something like that
Grappling hook using up your jets? interesting. I didn't like the idea at first, but it could work. Before I suggest something, here was my concern: I personally don't want to see cappers hitting speeds that kill gameplay...if it got to the point there is no way in hell of stopping them (or for that matter, even seeing them) that would suck. Then again, I don't like the idea of speed caps either, is it possible to merge the hook and the speed without screwing gameplay? maybe.
The following is not an answer to that btw.
How about this:
say the hook operated just like a weapon (meaning: until it's released, you can't fire) Someone mentioned that it should drain jets...in a sense, it could, but imo, not when you first release it. Picture this: left mouse button shoots the hook out at a high rate of speed. OK, you've shot the hook out, it's hit an object, here's an ide
-Even though the hook is stuck on an object, you won't 'swing' unless you use your jets. Why? think of a fishing reel...you've caught a fish, but you haven't applied any tension to the line so you're basically just extending the line as the fish swims off...in this case, as soon as the hook connects; you have become the fish and the object has become the fisherman. The only way to stop the line reeling, is to hit the jets and apply tension to the line with the effect being added momentum and a 'swing'. Of course, the amount of swing depends on how much energy you have in the jets. No energy? No swing.
Now, back to being hooked onto the object. Picture this:
JETS APPLIED = YOU REEL IN (say at half the speed you reel out)
JETS NOT APPLIED = LINE AUTOMATICALLY REELS YOU OUT
Once you have that concept in mind, you could actually swing around an object a number of times by controlling the line and your jets (if you wanted) Here's the goal of it though, reeling in would actually be like applying weight to yourself as you swing, basically you could control the speed of your release. There's more to it than that but my brain hurts like a mtf right now so heres a sum up:
left button: fire hook
left button: release hook
right button pressed while attached: reel in
nothing pressed while attached: reel out
something like that
I think this would be incredibly cool. I've heard it mentioned before and always thought of the Spiderman style moves that Special mentioned.
My one brain spasm - have it a be a tractor beam instead of a hook. This way it costs energy to use, so you gain a manuveur but lose some power. Beam would be simpler as you don't have to deal with letting cable out, cable in, cut cable.
My one brain spasm - have it a be a tractor beam instead of a hook. This way it costs energy to use, so you gain a manuveur but lose some power. Beam would be simpler as you don't have to deal with letting cable out, cable in, cut cable.
You diskjump off your base on sh.
You grapple onto one side face of the middle base. (the big arch)
You swing around underneath it.
You fly free, then grapple onto the other side.
You cut loose again, then grapple to the nme flag base.
You swoop down and grab the flag, then get slingshotted back up in the air.
You land in the valley, come up, and grapple the archway again, passing under it.
You fly free, then grapple the far face and swing around to your flagbase.
You ski over the roof, straight through your flag, and suicide.
How many times are you gonna have to practice to get that down?
You grapple onto one side face of the middle base. (the big arch)
You swing around underneath it.
You fly free, then grapple onto the other side.
You cut loose again, then grapple to the nme flag base.
You swoop down and grab the flag, then get slingshotted back up in the air.
You land in the valley, come up, and grapple the archway again, passing under it.
You fly free, then grapple the far face and swing around to your flagbase.
You ski over the roof, straight through your flag, and suicide.
How many times are you gonna have to practice to get that down?
Zerk Pacifist
Veteran X
A grappling hook is a great idea, but personally, I don't feel that it should have the ability to pull you. It should be just like a cable, perhaps slightly elastic, so that it only has an effect when you are moving beyond its radius.
People would pass right through the cable, but the cable would conform to the shape of the terrain depending on the position of the user. In that way, the pivot point would change, as well as the length of the cable to the pivot point. It would be difficult to master this ability; the speed at which your direction changes would of course depend on the length, and you could use this to do crazy turns.
As for the elasticity, if any, it would cause the cable to stretch depending on momentum, so the arc would be different, and also give a slight increase in speed. Therefore the minor increase in speed would be speed dependent; it would not be a replacement for DJ's. Elasticity would also make it very hard to use in a fast cap route, because the way the cable worked would be change, although it would also reward cappers for successfully pulling off its use. Maybe there should be a limit to how much it can stretch before it breaks.
Perhaps it could also be used on normal terrain. Say you were skiing forward too fast, and wanted to hit a ski route that you would normally have to slow down for. In this case, you could swing your forward momentum downward, either making a painful faceplant, or hitting the ski route right.
Just my quick thoughts on the issue.
People would pass right through the cable, but the cable would conform to the shape of the terrain depending on the position of the user. In that way, the pivot point would change, as well as the length of the cable to the pivot point. It would be difficult to master this ability; the speed at which your direction changes would of course depend on the length, and you could use this to do crazy turns.
As for the elasticity, if any, it would cause the cable to stretch depending on momentum, so the arc would be different, and also give a slight increase in speed. Therefore the minor increase in speed would be speed dependent; it would not be a replacement for DJ's. Elasticity would also make it very hard to use in a fast cap route, because the way the cable worked would be change, although it would also reward cappers for successfully pulling off its use. Maybe there should be a limit to how much it can stretch before it breaks.
Perhaps it could also be used on normal terrain. Say you were skiing forward too fast, and wanted to hit a ski route that you would normally have to slow down for. In this case, you could swing your forward momentum downward, either making a painful faceplant, or hitting the ski route right.
Just my quick thoughts on the issue.
JohnMcClane
Veteran XX
I'm skeptical about this idea. It could be good and it could be bad. Sounds nuts, but I like it, and I don't like it.
I dunno. I'd have to actually play the game with this feature in to decide whether or not it's any good.
I dunno. I'd have to actually play the game with this feature in to decide whether or not it's any good.
JohnMcClane
Veteran XX
Ok but I have to admit. If you can fly around and grapple onto another player it would be cool as hell.
You could hook onto your friendly player in heavy armor who is going mad fast because of a fast HO route and you get pulled along with him. Sounds kind of stupid but I'd like to try to do that at least once.
You could hook onto your friendly player in heavy armor who is going mad fast because of a fast HO route and you get pulled along with him. Sounds kind of stupid but I'd like to try to do that at least once.
I'll add my thoughts as well I guess.
- It shouldn't use energy or health as some have suggested, that's kinda lame.
- To make it more skillful, I think you should get one hook, not as many as you want. Or possibly a couple, maybe you could load another hook in I guess. You should be able to reel the hook back in once your done with it, but if a player runs through it or a disc cuts it or something, it's gone.
- How will players hitting (as in, walking into) it be handled? They can't just be able to walk through it, that's kind of weird. Are they gonna trip?
- It should be like the targeting laser in that it doesn't use a weapon slot. However, it may be necessary to make it a switchable weapon, because hitting 9 takes awhile. Maybe another key could be set to use for it specifically.
- You shouldn't be able to fire weapons, at least while firing it. Maybe once you fire it you lock it on to your body or something and then you can use weapons, but not immediately.
- It should do little or no damage to players. They're wearing steel armor and this thing is trying to grip, not maim. It should be a utility, not a weapon.
- It should NOT pull you towards the hook. Definitely not. Once it gets taut, it should be used for making sharp turns only. Pulling you towards it defeats the purpose of jetting.
- It shouldn't use energy or health as some have suggested, that's kinda lame.
- To make it more skillful, I think you should get one hook, not as many as you want. Or possibly a couple, maybe you could load another hook in I guess. You should be able to reel the hook back in once your done with it, but if a player runs through it or a disc cuts it or something, it's gone.
- How will players hitting (as in, walking into) it be handled? They can't just be able to walk through it, that's kind of weird. Are they gonna trip?
- It should be like the targeting laser in that it doesn't use a weapon slot. However, it may be necessary to make it a switchable weapon, because hitting 9 takes awhile.
Maybe another key could be set to use for it specifically.- You shouldn't be able to fire weapons, at least while firing it. Maybe once you fire it you lock it on to your body or something and then you can use weapons, but not immediately.
- It should do little or no damage to players. They're wearing steel armor and this thing is trying to grip, not maim. It should be a utility, not a weapon.
- It should NOT pull you towards the hook. Definitely not. Once it gets taut, it should be used for making sharp turns only. Pulling you towards it defeats the purpose of jetting.