[Feedback] Shield pack capping

If you remove knockback by 75 percent, it will basically remove shield pack as a viable capping tool, except to counter excessivve burner use.

I don't know if that is good or bad, it is simply a consequence to consider.



I should say this: A lot of people are saying if the defense is good enough, it would stop a shielded capper. Unfortunatly that is not true, I have played against some solid defense on pubs, and some solid defense in pickups. While they have a much higher success rate, it still feels overpowered.

That said, they are still stuck in t1/t2. There ARE ways to specfically counter shield pack capping, a mortar on the flag, or discs are concentrated in the right locations to knock me away from my base.

However, THAT said, epack capping becomes very effective on that defence. What I do now is switch between the two packs, assuming I hava a decent defense to go against.

The balancing is tricky. I think the devs ultimatly want other packs to be effective for capping roles, since shield is the only other pack besides the energy that could be viable, I would suggest a 40-60 % recuction in knockback while pack is active.
 
The only reason I don't think this is a problem is that both teams can do it and have fun fun standoffs. It's not completely cheap, but it might be slightly overpowered.
 
-Striker- said:
I should say this: A lot of people are saying if the defense is good enough, it would stop a shielded capper. Unfortunatly that is not true, I have played against some solid defense on pubs, and some solid defense in pickups. While they have a much higher success rate, it still feels overpowered.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but 'pub defense' doesn't equate to balance for me. A year down the line, you'd probably sorry for nerfing it now.
 
Look, all I'm saying is that I have played against some of the best defenders in the closed beta, in a pickup situation.


On top of that, while they may get better at their job, so will I.
 
Fool said:
Discjump without shield = ~50 damage on a light (75 total health)

Discjump with shield active = ~12 damage


The shield lasts 4 seconds. Even with the 25% passive reduction, you go down quick. I don't think it's that big of a deal right now, as nobody defends. When more than one capable person defends the flag, they can stop it without difficulty.
Click to expand...

Why should it take multiple people to stop one capper? Nevermind the fact that IF you have 2-3 capable D, they also have to deal with multiple offensive guys too. D won't be sitting around the flag waiting for one capper to hit.
 
Fool said:
Sorry, but 'pub defense' doesn't equate to balance for me. A year down the line, you'd probably sorry for nerfing it now.
Click to expand...

LoVer, Zephir, and Dimiotrix are all very good players, and they were just 3 of the 4 players Ding the flag on that pub. The shield pack was owning all of them.

Still though, I don't think it's a problem. If just one of them had gone capping they probably would have owned us. Instead it was like 2 HO raping our base, one or two LO, and all against like 2 defenders (myself and friedmunky -- I think?). I remember seeing the argument go on for a while so I remember the pub.

If they had just moved to grab, striker would have been toast at home, so I don't think it's a pack problem, just a strat problem for that particular defense oriented pub team.
 
Wulfen said:
Why should it take multiple people to stop one capper? Nevermind the fact that IF you have 2-3 capable D, they also have to deal with multiple offensive guys too. D won't be sitting around the flag waiting for one capper to hit.
Click to expand...


It doesn't require multiple D if the defender is smart. Body block a shield capper, buckler smash a shield capper, intercept him before he makes his route, grenade him on the path so he misses the flag, etc. All of these can be done by one person.
 
Fool said:
It doesn't require multiple D if the defender is smart. Body block a shield capper, buckler smash a shield capper, intercept him before he makes his route, grenade him on the path so he misses the flag, etc. All of these can be done by one person.
Click to expand...

Johhny X said:
LoVer, Zephir, and Dimiotrix are all very good players, and they were just 3 of the 4 players Ding the flag on that pub. The shield pack was owning all of them.
Click to expand...

Until I hear of one person reliably stopping this, I remain unconvinced. I don't want the flags to go untouched during maps, but neither do I want constant standoffs.
 
I like using the shield pack for capping, and I often get stopped by a good light/medium D who is actually trying to prevent a cap. Lights get knocked around easily, almost too easily. If they don't see you, it's easy to get away, but that's the same for any pack.
 
I'm sure somebody posted this already but the obvious counter is to epack chase. You guys are doing exactly what he wants you to do, waste a tremendous amount of firepower on the stand so he can burst through it all with his shield. just play off the flag a little bit. he'll NEVER get away from you if you have epack and he has shield.
 
Fool said:
I like using the shield pack for capping, and I often get stopped by a good light/medium D who is actually trying to prevent a cap. Lights get knocked around easily, almost too easily. If they don't see you, it's easy to get away, but that's the same for any pack.
Click to expand...
How about medium with shield?
 
Also mediums are heavier so they take considerable less knockback from discs...ie their dj's suck compared to shielded lights.

Another good thing about shieldpack capping is they don't require a route, often I get bb'ed, but the shield is active and I manage to squirm onto the flag and dj away (or get dj'ed away...)

I hear in 04 the shield pack recharges faster. As it is now on larger maps I already get another dj on the way home...with a decent route that is no slower than an epack.
 
It could be overpowered, I just won't declare it as such until I see defenders actually trying to stop it instead of complaining that the old methods don't work so great.
 
-Striker- said:
If you remove knockback by 75 percent, it will basically remove shield pack as a viable capping tool, except to counter excessivve burner use.
Click to expand...

Not quite: reducing knockback means that a person with shield pack can run through MAs and discs on the route without being thrown off-course as much. Reducing knockback by a large percentage would tip the balance even more in favor of the SP as a capping tool. The only thing it stops is free DJs, but good cappers can grapple their way back to base just the same. As long as they can survive, they won't have a problem going on their route as if there were no one chasing them.

I like the idea earlier of having the protection dissipate while the SP is active, so that they don't have 75% protection the entire time. This means they have to time their active state more carefully. This makes a player want to activate the pack right as a shot is about to hit them, which can cause mistakes in their timing and make them screw up the route in the process. If they start feeling like it's a little too difficult to use perfectly, they might not use it at all for capping.

Of course, that won't stop SP capping, but it gives SP cappers more to think about when they try it.
 
Arguing that our team could do the same doesnt seem like a very fun situation to me, it reduces capping to anyone who can get a sp and grab/dj, then its just constant standoffs. I dont prefer this in T:V at all.

Again, as for HoF's, on Emerald as an example, you wouldnt live long enough to be effective since its very small and open. Other maps it is possible I suppose, but it seems to me that hof's die very quickly, not sure if they just dont use a sp or what.

You cant really try and catch him on his route, because there isnt one, its straight from his base to our flag. If I was to sit on the middle building to try and stop him, id easily be seen and dueled by there LD/LO/MO/HO. Id guess its about 200-300m between flags ? Its a very small map, which is being changed, though I dont know by how much.

I realize its still early to say nerf nerf nerf the sp. But from the one instance it really seemed un balanced. The mortar the flag idea would also probably work, but as Striker said, if he simply went back to e pack, this would no longer really be effective. And of course if their were 2-3 cappers well...
 
Last edited:
[Khorne]Johnny X said:
Still though, I don't think it's a problem. If just one of them had gone capping they probably would have owned us. Instead it was like 2 HO raping our base, one or two LO, and all against like 2 defenders (myself and friedmunky -- I think?). I remember seeing the argument go on for a while so I remember the pub.

If they had just moved to grab, striker would have been toast at home, so I don't think it's a pack problem, just a strat problem for that particular defense oriented pub team.
Click to expand...

I agree with you here. To be honest I even thought about capping but was too busy experimenting with the speedpack. It is hard to say from these beta pubs whether or not something will be overpowered in competition. You could have a server full of the best ld/hof/hd, whatever, and if they are just messing around experimenting with stuff, you will never really be able to test out the viability of different capping techniques.

Id say a good imagination helps though. I have never seen what shield capping in medium or light will do against 2 or 3 ld/md that are paying attention and doing their best to stop cappers. But i can imagine that it would still be difficult for them to do from the little bit of pub experience I have had shield capping and defending against the shield cap.

Dev should be slow to nerf this pack imo. It is not clear that it is overpowered, and none of us want it to be useless. Right now I have made two killer routes on isle, one using energy, the other shield. right now the shield route is much better because I can take shielded dj's off the stand and at mf. I have a feeling that the E pack route will become more viable though, once cappers see that after taking significant damage at the stand they can no longer take that mf dj. No matter what kind of damage you take at the stand you can always hit your epack for the active.
 
Zoolooman said:
Problem:

The shield pack overshadows the e-pack thanks to low-damage disc jumps and high survivability. This specifically allows light cappers to grab the flag and disc jump back to base through massive storms of firepower.

This obviates much of the benefit of the e-pack, which is movement based.

Solution?

I suggest that the shield pack reduce KNOCKBACK in the same percentages that it reduces damage.

Why?

To make the e-pack a superior movement pack, to reduce the ease of disc jumping for an active shield packer, and to benefit heavies mildly.

Effects:

The active shield disc jump would be reduced by 75%, rebalancing the one complaint people have (free disc jumps) and reducing the amount of "head slamming" that a heavy takes when disced and jumping. It also benefits HoF somewhat.

Plus...

It's an intuitive solution. It reduces damage and knockback. Hell, it makes more sense this way. :p
Click to expand...

i like that idea
 
Also, I happen to think that reducing knockback is a bad idea. Completely nerfing the shielded cap has no real justification. Not to mention someone had a good point about the advantage it would give players who didnt want to be knocked around. I don't want to have a hof that can sit on the flag like a ton of bricks. A good capper should at least have the chance of dealing with the hof. I don't want to see cowboy cappers any more than the next guy, but I'd like it if a good capper and a good hof were a good match for each other. Immovability would ruin the balance.
 
who says you wouldnt be able to move the hof?

i dont think its a nerf at all, it would just make it so the capper cant go through a ton of damage AND THEN be able to disc jump home
 
Back
Top