What I really look forward to are the diversity of the weapon designs. At least thats what I think--judging from the screens it looks like each tribe has its own version of a particular weapon, especially our favorite little disc-spitting weapon of mayhem. I'm judging this purely on observation since its all I really have to go on, I'd appreciate it if someone would correct me if I'm wrong. Aside from that I'm really looking forward to the single player campaign.
What are you most looking forward to? T:V
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Thrax Panda said:Special made a quote about how cool he thought a grappling hook would be, and it kind of took off from there. I'm not sure why so many people keep posting about it. That and the "I want a sword" posts.
Because "cool factor" always takes precedent over the slightest thought on redundancy, excess and general game design.
A grappling hook in Tribes would be redudant, complex, and worthless (or if done in a very complex manner, unbalancingly powerful).
A sword? What the heck? Melee weapons are pretty much anathema to Tribes. If you want close range in first person shooter games, you use shotguns, rocket launchers, wide spread chainguns or flamethrowers.
Unsurprisingly, Tribes is no different. And we already have a rocket launcher (disc launcher) and a chaingun. What else do we want? Well, we have hints of a burner (flamethrower) and a blaster that acts like a shotgun.
Sounds like a melee weapon would be redudant, and to make it useful, we'd have to make it overpowered.
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Sir Lucius
Veteran XX
I'm positive all tribes will have exact weapons in terms of functionality. Actual artistic deign is something I could only envision as skins, and even then I have my doubts. The main reason your see a lot of differnt designs is b/c they've just been redoing things as they progress.
Sir Lucius
Veteran XX
Zoolooman said:
I agree with you on most points, but I stand by that a grappling hook could add to freedom of movement. It's not about terms of contraction, the popular idea is that of diretional change.
zoo the grapple's virtues have been articulated thousands of times. Your response about its merits usually consist of, "it would be gay," "its not tribes," "it would be too unbalancing," or something similarly helpful.
A melee weapon (sword or whatever) would be useful for a variety of reasons. The majority of Tribes weapons do significant splash damage. Thus, they're not useful indoors. A melee weapon would enable other gametypes besides CTF. As we all know, many fps' have considerable indoor play. Tribes limits its market (and gameplay types) by not having an effective melee weapon.
I don't care if its a sword, but its a wholely reasonable thing to ask for a melee weapon - even in a game played with jetpacks at high speed.
A melee weapon (sword or whatever) would be useful for a variety of reasons. The majority of Tribes weapons do significant splash damage. Thus, they're not useful indoors. A melee weapon would enable other gametypes besides CTF. As we all know, many fps' have considerable indoor play. Tribes limits its market (and gameplay types) by not having an effective melee weapon.
I don't care if its a sword, but its a wholely reasonable thing to ask for a melee weapon - even in a game played with jetpacks at high speed.
But Lucius, part of Tribes's greatest balancing features is the predictability of inertia. When you move fast, you lose the capability to maneuver out of the way. The grappling hook as a redirecting force counters one of the central mechanics of the jetpack movements: predictability.
Just as an "booster" which could be applied for a boost of free speed removes the need for forethought in your skiing, a grappling hook for redirection assists the player unnecessarily in dodging and maneuvering. It sounds like a whole lot of trouble, adds a lot of defensive movement to a game in which players already move and survive better than in any other FPS, and overall becomes a player crutch.
And that is if the grappling hook is useful. That's one possible iteration. Couldn't you imagine all the other possible grappling hook designs that are worthless? There is no "happy medium". The grappling hook is useful and changes the movement dynamic into favoring player defense, or it takes on a form that is redundant to the current movement model.
Just as an "booster" which could be applied for a boost of free speed removes the need for forethought in your skiing, a grappling hook for redirection assists the player unnecessarily in dodging and maneuvering. It sounds like a whole lot of trouble, adds a lot of defensive movement to a game in which players already move and survive better than in any other FPS, and overall becomes a player crutch.
And that is if the grappling hook is useful. That's one possible iteration. Couldn't you imagine all the other possible grappling hook designs that are worthless? There is no "happy medium". The grappling hook is useful and changes the movement dynamic into favoring player defense, or it takes on a form that is redundant to the current movement model.
i think the general consensus about the grappling hook was that it'd be a one shot per spawn thing.
Thus only rarely interfering with the predictability.
Mediums and heavys would not be able to use it either.
Thus only rarely interfering with the predictability.
Mediums and heavys would not be able to use it either.
Flatscan said:
Geez man, what is this random attack for? You think I only dissect the concept on "it would be gay"? The post above is an example of my thoughts on the subject, but I'll put up some new ones here.
Firstly, list me 2 to 5 merits of the grappling hook for me to dissect.
As for the melee weapon, a shotgun is a better replacement than a melee weapon, as the splash won't hit back, and yet it has some splash, which is useful in the 3d Tribes environment. If the blaster is an energy shotgun (as has been rumored) then the weapon niche you describe is completely handled by the blaster.
To further dissect your claim, most of the indoor games you reference don't rely on melee weapons to fill that niche (in UT2K3 and Q3A the melee weapons could be removed without affecting game balance). They use shotguns, grenades, rocket launcher rounds, chainguns, and most importantly, hitscan rifles.
Never once does the melee niche become necessary. The claim that melee is needed - at least in the context you present - is invalid. Inevitably, it is the shotgun, rocket launcher or the sniper rifle that fills the close range role.
Rabid Poop said:
While this is the best solution for limiting a powerful tool, the question further becomes one of feasibility. I can theoretically say, "Yeah, there is no reason for or against a grappling hook given that it would only be light and only one shot use," but I can't specifically cite a reason for over against, other than, "I think it should be in the game!"
And when I think of what should be in th game, I think of big things. I imagine if they had another six months during which they would otherwise lay indolent, I'd heartily endorse such a tool. As it stands, with so few uses, it seems an almost unnecessary addition. Why take months of work and restrict it to mere seconds of use, when there are other things they could add to the game?
In other words, I'm arguing how high such a theoretical balanced grappling hook would be on your hypothetical "to do" list. I would place adding another two vehicles, another real weapon, or another gametype plus 12 maps above a grappling hook.
But hey, this is just my opinion. Take it as you please.
Sir Lucius
Veteran XX
Planetside is a textbook example of why unique wepons per faction is a bad idea.
Anyways, Zoolooman, a hoot shot doesn't necesarilly remove movement predictability. One of the big conecpt pushes is that the ground is not grabbable. Direction change itself is predicitable by virture that you could see the line. RP claims a one shot per spawn, but it's of my personal opinoin that would be somewhat limited. I think you should have hooks as ammo, and when you release you do a line cut. You see this as too powerful, I know, but I think when you limit the hookable objects, and factor in that aiming carries momentum, actual direction changes become all the more critical.
In short, I do think you can balance it.
Anyways, Zoolooman, a hoot shot doesn't necesarilly remove movement predictability. One of the big conecpt pushes is that the ground is not grabbable. Direction change itself is predicitable by virture that you could see the line. RP claims a one shot per spawn, but it's of my personal opinoin that would be somewhat limited. I think you should have hooks as ammo, and when you release you do a line cut. You see this as too powerful, I know, but I think when you limit the hookable objects, and factor in that aiming carries momentum, actual direction changes become all the more critical.
In short, I do think you can balance it.
Sir Lucius
Veteran XX
Zoolooman said:
Weapons and vehicles aren't just something you can throw in a game given more time. The idea is that everything should have a niche. Wheather or not the hook's movement role would be a positive addition to the game is purly subjective.
It's only predictable when taut. Yes, I agree that limiting the grabbable objects would be interesting. I only wonder how you prevent people from doing stuff like:
1. Hanging.
2. Swinging like a pendulum.
3. Rotating about in a conic circle.
How long does the hook last?
It's not so simple in implementation as in pure thought. Exactly where would you hook that would be useful? There are a lot of questions, and they aren't easy to answer. But please, I'm all for having a fun discussion. If you have some good ideas, tell them. I still won't approve of the tool's inclusion, though I may decide that the entire concept of grappling hook is actually worthwhile.
I still think it's redundant and excess complexity, even when balanced. But that opinion can be ignored for discussing details. How would you implement a thing to make it useful without making it unbalancing. We've gotten around the ammo/use problem. Now for how an actual use WORKS.
1. Hanging.
2. Swinging like a pendulum.
3. Rotating about in a conic circle.
How long does the hook last?
It's not so simple in implementation as in pure thought. Exactly where would you hook that would be useful? There are a lot of questions, and they aren't easy to answer. But please, I'm all for having a fun discussion. If you have some good ideas, tell them. I still won't approve of the tool's inclusion, though I may decide that the entire concept of grappling hook is actually worthwhile.
I still think it's redundant and excess complexity, even when balanced. But that opinion can be ignored for discussing details. How would you implement a thing to make it useful without making it unbalancing. We've gotten around the ammo/use problem. Now for how an actual use WORKS.
Void|deadjawa
Veteran X
I dont think that a grappling hook would destroy the "read and lead" disking game. All it would do is add another factor into your decision to shoot. Its not like the change in momentum from a grapple/hook shot/tow rope would be completely instantaneous.
But from the sounds of it, all of this talk is garbage because its not gonna be in the game.
...but maybe an expansion
But from the sounds of it, all of this talk is garbage because its not gonna be in the game.
...but maybe an expansion
Void|deadjawa
Veteran X
Zoolooman said:
Whats wrong with that stuff?
Sir Lucius said:
There are already pre-established niche roles which can be drawn on for inspiration when I consider new vehicles and new weapons. Not only that, but the weapons and vehicles are already halfway implemented into the game. Their mechanics are generically defined, and the particular implementation is only a stone's throw away from being reality.
The same cannot be said for grappling hooks. There have never really been an effective use of grappling hooks, because no game has ever been effectively designed for them. Hanging objects alone are exceedingly complex and rare in FPS games. Tethered objects are even rarer, again because of implementation complexity. There is no particular niche into which such an item could be placed. There is no generic implentation upon which the tool can be designed.
That alone places the addition of vehicles and weapons over a grappling hook.
Sir Lucius
Veteran XX
Although not CTF based, if you read my extreme ski dream thread it involved downhill ski racing which included hairpin corners. In such situations that would be useful.
But more to another point, one could approch the flag from more angles and develop more complicated routes. Another thing is, chasers would have the unique ability to cut the corner, so in some situations they could actually better catch up to a capper
But more to another point, one could approch the flag from more angles and develop more complicated routes. Another thing is, chasers would have the unique ability to cut the corner, so in some situations they could actually better catch up to a capper