Not to mention that if South Korea was invaded by the North China would have a massive refugee problem, no matter how well they patrolled the North Korea/China boarder. The North Koreans have enough of a problem keeping their own citizens in North Korea... if you add the 15 million+ (iirc) citizens of South Korea, who will be discontent, you have quite the boarder patrol problem.
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North Korea may strike U.S. forces pre-emptively
- Thread starter JoMo
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Who Replied?Blitzkrieg
Veteran XV
ZugZug said:This is precisely why they'd help.
North Korea is a monster created by China. The Chinese aren't gonna sit by and lose face while a problem that THEY ALLOWED TO EXIST runs wild over one of their primary trading partners and threatens the rest of the world with nukes.
Hmm, ZugZug, I respect your opinion. I still remember you back when Cows with Guns were still around. However, I would like to know what do you know about China to enable you to make such a claim, that China will help USA due to the reason you stated. Have you visited China? Have you talked to people in China? Have you read about Chinese history? I have done all 3. What you say isn't impossible, given what I know. However, the chance of that happening is quite remote. If North Korea poses a threat to China, believe me, I won't be surprised to find China invades North Korea. North Korea is under heavy Chinese influence, kinda like US & Canada. However, lately, North Korea hasn't been heeding China's wishes to say the least. That's part of the reason China is frustrated with North Korea.
US is China's biggest trading partner. However, reading Chinese history, I am not sure if China will treat it as of paramount concern. Have you looked at US debt holdings? Foreigners holds a good chunk of US government debt. Without those foreigners to sell us their products and keep our money in USA as investment, our trade deficit would'e casued a massive devaluation of dollar long time ago. US and China going to war against each other is not in either country's best interest, more so for China than USA at this stage though.
Originally posted by Ptavv
Not to mention that if South Korea was invaded by the North China would have a massive refugee problem, no matter how well they patrolled the North Korea/China boarder. The North Koreans have enough of a problem keeping their own citizens in North Korea... if you add the 15 million+ (iirc) citizens of South Korea, who will be discontent, you have quite the boarder patrol problem.
I doubt China likes to see war erupt on the Korean peninsula. I think China just wants a regime that's friendly to them, that's all. If Korea is divided, that might be beneficial also as it'll keep Korea weaker, less of a threat to China.
ScottTheWise13
Veteran XV
sounds like you agree w/ zug, blitz
Blitzkrieg said:If North Korea poses a threat to China, believe me, I won't be surprised to find China invades North Korea. North Korea is under heavy Chinese influence, kinda like US & Canada. However, lately, North Korea hasn't been heeding China's wishes to say the least. That's part of the reason China is frustrated with North Korea.
If Canada invaded the UK, how would the US respond? In the unlikely event that we sat back and did nothing, and France came to the UK's rescue and conquered Canada and occupied it during the rebuilding process, how would that make us look?
It's the same thing. If North Korea, China's Bitch, invaded another sovereign nation against China's wishes, China would have egg on its face. If the United States turned around and liberated South Korea and conquered North Korea while China did nothing, how would that reflect on China as a valued member of the "international community"?
China has so much to lose with an out-of-control North Korea. They wouldn't sit by and let it happen under their nose.
where's that damn orson scott card link.
Blitzkrieg
Veteran XV
I give up. I stated why I think the probability of china helping USA isn't that much based on my reading, traveling, and talking to Chinese citizens. I asked if you have done any of them, you never answered them. I presume you never have.
It is ironic that I find some people's opinion of USA is "wrong" in their local forums. Yet, I gave up arguing with them, trying to show US perspectives because I grew up in USA. It seems I'm encountering the same thing here. USA can be perceived as a bully whether we like it or not. We may not feel that way, but to some people, we are.
Whether China lose face or not, that's a decision for them to decide. If they don't believe they have, then they don't. You may think they will lose face, they may not think that way....
Is Israel staunch ally of USA. Is Israel heavily influenced by USA? It did not stop Israel going into Palestinian controlled territory against US wishes. It did not stop the Israeli from invading and occupying southern part of Lebanon. The list can go on and on.
What I was trying to do is show a different perspective, based on what I have learned. I guess it's a futile effort.
USA was more withdrawn in the late 80's and early 90's. Saddam was supported by the USA during the Iraq-Iran war. Saddam probably thinks he got USA's good side and invaded Kuwait...It's a misunderstanding, misconception, of Saddam's reading on USA that resulted in the gulf war...
I guess we will repeat history after history...
I have stated earlier. I believe China just wants a friendly regime that's close to them on the korean peninsula. Wether or not it's north or south probably won't mean as much to them as it used to. The die hard true believer communist in China is a dying breed, at least in the cities I have traveled to. However, nationalism is on the rise to replace the shattered communism ideology, something else for the citizens of China to cling on since communism has been abandoned in all practicality.
It is ironic that I find some people's opinion of USA is "wrong" in their local forums. Yet, I gave up arguing with them, trying to show US perspectives because I grew up in USA. It seems I'm encountering the same thing here. USA can be perceived as a bully whether we like it or not. We may not feel that way, but to some people, we are.
Whether China lose face or not, that's a decision for them to decide. If they don't believe they have, then they don't. You may think they will lose face, they may not think that way....
Is Israel staunch ally of USA. Is Israel heavily influenced by USA? It did not stop Israel going into Palestinian controlled territory against US wishes. It did not stop the Israeli from invading and occupying southern part of Lebanon. The list can go on and on.
What I was trying to do is show a different perspective, based on what I have learned. I guess it's a futile effort.
USA was more withdrawn in the late 80's and early 90's. Saddam was supported by the USA during the Iraq-Iran war. Saddam probably thinks he got USA's good side and invaded Kuwait...It's a misunderstanding, misconception, of Saddam's reading on USA that resulted in the gulf war...
I guess we will repeat history after history...
I have stated earlier. I believe China just wants a friendly regime that's close to them on the korean peninsula. Wether or not it's north or south probably won't mean as much to them as it used to. The die hard true believer communist in China is a dying breed, at least in the cities I have traveled to. However, nationalism is on the rise to replace the shattered communism ideology, something else for the citizens of China to cling on since communism has been abandoned in all practicality.
DipStick said:Well, they can go ahead and do that...and feel the rest of the world come down on them in a furious war. Theyd be much smarter to let the US make the first move, that way they can have all this Anti-War protest to their advantage.
If they stirke pre-emptively, theyll successfully alienate themselves from anyone who would support them otherwise.
Kinda like the US/Iraq?
Blitzkrieg said:I give up. I stated why I think the probability of china helping USA isn't that much based on my reading, traveling, and talking to Chinese citizens. I asked if you have done any of them, you never answered them. I presume you never have.
Umm, you said you've talked to citizens of China and from that you figure the possibility is remote, but that you wouldn't be surprised by the scenario I described. Well which is it?
Then when it comes time to make your own point you basically throw your hands up and say "who knows."
Well gee, thanks for the insight, Grasshopper.
Blitzkrieg
Veteran XV
ScottTheWise13 said:sounds like you agree w/ zug, blitz
No, I don't. But, initially, I am curious why zugzug thinks that way, that's why I stated my background, of my travel in china, speaking to the locals, and reading of chinese history, etc. If zugzug can prove his credential, I may agree with him. So far, I failed to see why I should agree with zugzug.
How do you feel, when muslim nations feel USA is against muslim yet they conveniently forget USA helped Bosnia, a place where there is a significant muslim presence... How about Kuwait?
When people make claim they think USA will do and no do, I just like to see their credential, whether they are believable or simply someone who fancy they know the thinking of another nation without doing adequate homework first.
As an American citizen, I'm just tired of how some people have misconceptions about us. I tried to argue on America's behalf yet those people think they're American experts, without living here before. It's something that irks me, due to my previous experiences. That's why if people make claims about China, I would like to know their credential.
DipStick said:The really scary thing about NK is how extreme they are AND they have nukes. I mean shit, they scare me more than Iraq ever would. They sell missiles and rockets to terrorist states, and are currently making MORE nukes.
These guys would have no qualms about selling Al-queda once of their nukes me thinks :/
Yeah, this is what the people who dont want to attack Iraq have been saying for months
There are more dangerous people than Saddam