Did Jesus die a virgin?
- Thread starter Snoobper
- Start date
Kowboy said:
Note the chick on his right.
(edit: oh screw you Kamel)
The 'chick' on the right of Yeshua (Jesus) is actually the youngest disciple John who wrote the Gospel of John, John 1, John 2, John 3, and the Book of Revelation.
The statement that the person to the right of Jesus is Mary Magdalen has been taught for awhile now but many do not believe this.
I personaly believe it is the Disciple John.
TseTse said:
Hello my friend.
I always love to see your posts in these type of threads.
Even though I disagree with them 98% of the time.
(Yes I lurk a lot and don't post much)
You always have some interesting aspects on the scriptures.
As for scripture of the early Christians meeting on Sunday please look at the Book of Acts chatpter 20 verse 7.
ACTS 20:7
7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
The breaking of bread (communion) was done by the early church once a week and it was on the 1st day of the week which we all know is Sunday.
Nitescape said:
Considering there are 9 examples of how the artist draws men in that picture I think that the person on Jesus's right is female. I'm not saying they were married or had kids or that stuff. But the males in the picture are distinctly male all except for "her" to my eye.
Beren said:
I don't understand why people with a strong religious belief tend to go to any lengths to 'support' their belief with facts. As in this case, where the mere existence of such groups is used to imply that Jesus wasn't married just because there were Jewish groups who did not practice marriage at the time. There is no evidence that Jesus was a member of such a group.
In mainstream Judaism of the time, early marriage WAS the norm (as it was for most of the world). Remaining unmarried was still the exception.
That being said, Jesus being married or not being married shouldn't affect whether or not you believe he was the literal son of god. Or whatever it is that you believe.
You don't need facts to support your belief if it is, in fact, BELIEF! This need for factual support almost seems to imply that you aren't sure in your heart and need proof, which in most christian traditions is counter to the teachings.
is it weird that i read the thread title as "did jesus die pimpin?"
Philipsz said:
Best post in this thread. 
Aww cmon, you think he just suddenly became interested in hoes and 'dregs' in his thirties? They were his homies from his wild days in his twenties when he first figured out the 'water into wine' trick.
Nitescape said:
Let's be clear and careful as there are many issues embedded in this issue.
1. We acknowledge that "Sunday" is not the 7th day of the week but is the biblical/hebrew 1st day of the week. Ok.
Let's then be clear that Sunday is NOT the Sabbath... a most sacred day for jews... especially Essenes like Y'shua. They had a clear calendar with passover and other things playing a central role in their lives. This was a HEBREW thing (although there is reason to believe the Essences didnt follow a lunar-calendar like most hebrews). Ok.
2. The traditional, sacred day for jews is the Sabbath, which is saturday.
3. Sunday is an english word traced back to the German pagan goddess Sunna. It was NOT the primary day of religious service among the early nazareans and there is no evidence suggesting it was of any major religious importance to them that i can find.
4. Sunday became officially the day of Roman Christian celebration in 325 ad thanks to the Council of Nicia who came together as a POLITICAL act to centralize and codify the practices of the Church.
It was to be the "lord's day" and later on the Church would even imply IT was the sabbath. The Council and the Church was in the business of controlling people and gaining converts from the pagan religions, and often mixed imagery, stories and ritual to make the religion as popular as possible.
5. Eucharist is currently equated with the Holy Communion of Mass held on Sundays by the Roman Church. From the early days of the Church, they worked hard to centralize all rituals around the idea of authority-dominated ritual of the eucharist, the communion.
6. If the Eucharist is SO IMPORTANT and even the grounding upon which all Church services are held... why only ONE mention of it in Acts?
You'd think something so absolutely fundamental to the Church and its continuation would get more than 1 passing reference in Acts.
Interestingly enough, it's the verse you cited, although your version doesnt include the mention of Eucharist as the aramaic translation does.
Acts 20:7 (notice how dramatically different our two verses are)
This is the one primary reference to the Eucharist and to the idea of an event taking place on Sunday. This verse is apparently the grounds upon which the entire Roman Church defends the practice of Sunday mass. If i take your comments correctly, you're saying it is a justifiably grounds.
7. What does Eucharist actually mean in that verse??
Let's look at it again...
Eucharist is a greek term for THANKSGIVING. It implies something like the tradition called the "agape feasts" which appear to have been occassions where folks came together in potluck of sorts, sharing meals and eating together as a community. In Hellenistic times of Y'shua it may have also implied overlap with more widely celebrated "love meals."
In other words, if you read that verse carefully, it does NOT necessarily imply some form of religious ceremony whatsoever but instead implies a traditional jewish "potluck" or thanksgiving festival about a fellowship.
It has no direct relationship to the sabbath or even the Last Supper and passover rituals. Such a connection is pure speculation. Perhaps this is why it's not mentioned much in the Acts?
All that verse within Acts tells us is that apparently Paul and the people of Philippo (seven days after the "unleavend bread" days)... had a THANKSGIVING feast.
At best... the early nazarene essenes were taking a popular love-feast tradition and using it as a way to remember Y'shua and the last supper, but is there even evidence of that? And would the nazarenes have accepted making such feasts the center of a new religion? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT.
8. Were communal-feasts even part of life for Essene culture?
Apparently so. We see evidence that it continued into the time of Paul and it appears that regular banquets may have always been part of Essene culture... perhaps relating to the wider feast traditions in that part of the world, but certainly also implying a strong sense of fellowship. After all, the essenes believed that the Kingdom of God would literally be made manifest by generations of faithful fellowship.
As jews, fellowship and feasts were at the core of their spirituality. It is no coincidence that Y'shua spoke strongly about the analogies of food and wine.
9. Why build "Mass" around a thanksgiving/sunday feast instead of around sabbath ceremony? Why sunday for communion with the Lord's Supper?
I am not sure, but it seems rather fishy to me (no pun intended) and more about converting pagans than real nazarene, jewish tradition.
Y'shua's last supper and the entire concept of communion with god through breaking bread... is entirely a jewish concept and tied to Passover. This is just undeniable. So how does this get celebrated by Roman/Protestant Church on Sunday? (let's also note many christian churches deny the whole "sunday" thing and commune on the sabbath)
It seems that the free-form feasts of fellowship just werent good enough for the Church. Even Paul was critical of the agape festivals, saying it basically was not "religious enough" (people dared to drink booze and have fun). Over 3-5 centuries as the Church would develop they would push aside this thanksgiving "agape" aspect and focus moreso on the idea of a holy communion feast.
"Mass" would become focused on this very authoritarian Church-centered ritualized communion.... having nothing directly to do with the jewish tradition and life of Y'shua (whether you see him as messiah or not).
The Eastern Orthodox branches would veer out and maintain that the Sabbath was a holy day, but that Sunday was the "Lord's Day." However, the Roman/Protestant Churches would by and large end up forgetting and even denying the idea of an independent sabbath. The Church would in fact come to imply that Sunday was the 7th day, was the sabbath itself (simplicity sells).
IN CONCLUSION
There is absolutely nothing to justify basing Church services around Sunday in the Bible, and in fact endless reason to think of passover and sabbath ceremonies as the proper time for communion remembrances.
At best, we have evidence that they celebrated some form of fellowship-driven thanksgiving and remembrance on a sunday, but even then it's a matter of translation and interpretation since there's only ONE remote mention of it and different versions of the new testament dont even clearly indicated what it was that happened on that day.
Can you read that?
If you cant... then you cant even remotely talk precisely about what Y'shua the nazarene said and did, nor even what his immediate followers did.
They spoke in aramaic. The earliest texts were in aramaic and rough greek.
That text is from an aramaic/syriac version of Acts based on the Peshitta
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Nitescape said:
I dont believe much that is in the Davinci Code but i think he did get right Davinci's INTENT regarding this painting.
IMO, that is undeniably Mary Magdalene.
There are gospels that discuss him being marrierd to her and being seen kissing her a lot. She's described as a very significant leader within the congregation and more importantly... it's implied that she was even "higher" authority upon his death than any of the other disciples.
For those who believe he was truly a jewish nazarene essene... and that in fact he was a jewish MESSIAH... this is not that hard to reconcile. It's only if you get caught up in the later Roman Catholic theology where they decided he was basically literally "god" from a virgin that you become compelled to remove any evidence of "impurity" and humanity.
In which case Mary goes from being his trusted, intimate companion (as all rebbes were expected to have) and because slandered as a prostitute, a whore... who just happens somehow to always be around.
IMO DaVinci was squarely confronting this Church myth and his work is filled with similar heresies, as was popular in the time. In the simplest form, these artists such as DaVinci were getting paid by rich aristocrats and church officials... and they loved to embed subtle heretical commentaries in their work.
I'm sure he did love at least ONE woman before he died. Does this have anything to do with Ash Wednesday this past week? Becaue I saw a lot of people with ash crosses on their foreheads.
Clearly before he ascends Jesus told us that his dad said there's some chocolate in Heaven and it was the shit, and that he loved bunnies. And that's how Easter came to be.
Clearly before he ascends Jesus told us that his dad said there's some chocolate in Heaven and it was the shit, and that he loved bunnies. And that's how Easter came to be.
Zulu said:
For me, the idea that Roman/Protestants dont get his name right and dont even celebrate on the right day says a fuckload about their religious beliefs.
Granted, there ARE many christians who are clear that sabbath is saturday and that his name was Yeshua/Y'shua.
As a rule, when im around bible thumpers i ask them if they know what language he spoke and it they know how to say his name. Usually the most fundamentalist types known neither.... and it's a nice way to make them step back just a sliver.