Cataclysm: 10/25 mans will share same lockout and loot

WoW was released in 2004. Since then, guilds saw the group infrastructure needed to complete all PvE challenges change multiple times. These changes were brought about by necessity, not randomness.

Some of us played when guilds were situated around 55 size roster and 40 person raids. It would be ludicrous to return to that today and it is possible groups of 25 will be considered ludicrous in the future. Cataclysm is a period of transition.

All signs point to a decrease in overall time spent in-game by most WoW subscribers. Players are getting tired of doing the same thing, but will continue to do so if it gets less tedious. This also aligns with the will of Blizzard, who wishes for subscribers to spend less time in WoW.

By removing the need to do the same content in groups of 10 and 25, Blizzard appeals to most players who want to do same things less often to complete all PvE challenges.

Most WoW subscribers are fans of all Blizzard franchises and therefore Blizzard also wants to clear up the schedules of WoW subscribers so they can continue to pay for the game, but also purchase their new releases, such as Starcraft II and Diablo 3.

All in all, some stupid changes, some brought on by necessity.
 
Sparty said:
By removing the need to do the same content in groups of 10 and 25, Blizzard appeals to most players who want to do same things less often to complete all PvE challenges.

Most WoW subscribers are fans of all Blizzard franchises and therefore Blizzard also wants to clear up the schedules of WoW subscribers so they can continue to pay for the game, but also purchase their new releases, such as Starcraft II and Diablo 3.

All in all, some stupid changes, some brought on by necessity.
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Nice shot, I didn't think about that. I figured the WoW audience was segregated enough from the SC audience to not let it really interfere.

I still believe Ulduar was what raiding should be. 10 is normal, 25 is heroic, if you want better loot you can unlock the hardmodes to get it.
 
Not having to do the same shit 6 or more times each week will be amazing. I do hope that the number of items dropped in 25man will be worth getting people back together to raid again. ATM there's absolutely no reason to raid in a progression guild, and it sounds like Cataclysm wishes to keep that trend going. I don't mind it since I'm older and not as willing to play 7 days a week, but I hope they get rid of the need to run shit like VoA and old content for weekly raids.
 
Vanilla raids are released:
"Fuck yeah, we're so much cooler cuz we got 40 people together to kill this epic shit. Check out our fucking epics! This shit is so hard, no one but us hardcore pve nerds will see this content!"

TBC raid structure announced:
"WTF THIS EXPANSION IS EXPANDING ON HOW RAIDS ARE STRUCTURED. OH FUCK 25 PLAYERS ONLY??? OMFG CHANGE IS BAD!!! ASDAFOVERREACTING!@!"

Soon after people settle into TBC:
"K, this wasn't really bad at all."

WoTLK raid structure announced:
"OMGWTF AN EXPANSION IS CHANGING SHIT AGAIN??? HOLY SHIT 10 MAN RAIDS???? SCRUBS WILL BE ABLE TO GET DECENT GEAR THATS ONLY A TIER LOWER THAN MY UBER EPIC 25 MAN SHIT? FUUUUUCK THAT!!! THIS IS A HORRIBLE CHANGE I'M GONNA GO OVERREACT AGAIN!!!@%1"

Soon after WoTLK:
"K, this wasn't really bad. We still get more/better gear than 10man'ers and keep our bragging rights from achievements and other 25man-only stuff."

Cata raids structure announced:
"OH. FUCK. NO. 10 MAN RAIDS GET THE SAME EXACT GEAR AS US?!?!?! HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!! I DON'T CARE THAT BOTH RAIDS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SIMILAR IN DIFFICULTY OR THAT WE'LL STILL BE ABLE TO BRAG WITH OUR REALM FIRST ACHIEVEMENTS OR THAT WE'LL STILL GET GEAR FASTER AND MORE EFFICIENTLY - I WANT THOSE FUCKERS TO BE FORCED TO PLAY ONLY ONE WAY OR ELSE BE PENALIZED... EVEN THOUGH THEY'LL BE PENALIZED ALREADY SINCE 25MAN IS STILL MORE EFFICIENT GEAR/BADGE WISE. OVERREACTING POWERS ACTIVATE - FORM OF PVENERD!"

Soon after Cata:
"K, this wasn't bad after all..."
 
I'm still trying to puzzle out WTH their new MMO is going to be, especially considering 1. They claim it will not compete with WoW at all and 2. doing such a thing seems close to backwards to Blizzard's M.O. of polishing and streamlining already established genres.
 
Feannag said:
I'm still trying to puzzle out WTH their new MMO is going to be, especially considering 1. They claim it will not compete with WoW at all and 2. doing such a thing seems close to backwards to Blizzard's M.O. of polishing and streamlining already established genres.
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It's going to be a console MMO.
 
To me this makes sense. This also addresses Blizzard's huge mistake in having loot ilevel tiers get out of control on WOTLK which i think they realize was a big problem.

In BC, top end Kara items were ilevel 125. Top End Sunwell were 164 and a lot of people didn't see all of those before the xpac was over. They saw the 154 shit, etc.. Thats a3 0ish ilevel diff. Compare to WOTLK which starts at 200 and as of just now is at 277. That is a gigantic gap and an escalating gear scale they couldn't keep up with. Lots of things just didn't scale well with the crazy gear they were pumping out and layering 10 and 25 by 13 ilevels as were evident by patching classes and etc.. to fix the nonsense.

I don't see how this is that huge a deal. If you raid 25m today you probably will in Cat. You'll get the same loot you do today and have 1 less raid a week to run for misplaced BiS items and badges. The only change is that guy who only runs 10m may be running around with the same shit. I don't recall ppl going nuts when ZA came out and you could get ilevel141(equal to most BT loot) raiding a small raid only, so i don't see this as a big deal. it gives 10m guilds a shot at actually recruiting ppl to raid and there's tons of people out there that just don't want to deal with the idiocy of 25m raiding.

Fulltime 25m will still progress, get their loot first, be able to bring more diversity to a raid and get to hardmodes first which will and should be the separation of loot. Most casuals aren't going to get past normal modes anyways and can pug all 25m content today for the most part. So what's the diff? Seems like over-reacting like iczer was saying.

edit: also you can't have one without the other. you cannot lock both instances and give one better loot. that would effectly end 10m raiding and you might as well remove it from the game. If your choice is A)pug/run 25m for loot X or B)first do all the 10m, then you can start getting loot X at hardmodes i think we know what most everyone's pick is. You have to have the same loot if the lockout is shared.
 
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I think the idea is fine if more lock outs = more encounters.

I'm still waiting for blizzard to balance the game in a way where everyone endgame isn't wearing the exact same goddamn thing. I hate that shit, I want us all to look different!
 
d0ur said:
edit: also you can't have one without the other. you cannot lock both instances and give one better loot. that would effectly end 10m raiding and you might as well remove it from the game. If your choice is A)pug/run 25m for loot X or B)first do all the 10m, then you can start getting loot X at hardmodes i think we know what most everyone's pick is. You have to have the same loot if the lockout is shared.
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It would hurt 10s some, but they wouldn't die out by a long shot. My guild has never had the numbers to run 25s, and I'm sure that will continue to be the case in Cataclysm regardless of the rewards. In addition to the many of us who run 10s by circumstance, there are a lot of people who, for various reasons, refuse to run 25s.
 
I'm torn on the issue. I'm a firm believer that 25man should offer more than just quantity on loot compared to the 10man, but I'm also tired of doing 10m groups that doesn't matter on my main. So I support the shared lockout, but not the loot idea.
 
Fool said:
Cataclysm is now getting rid of badges, instead there will be Hero points and Valor points (similar to honor vs arena points). All lower tier "badge" loot will be Hero point purchased and latest tier raid loot will be Valor.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker | Cataclysm Badge and PvP Point Changes
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That was to be expected, and is a great change. Changing Valor badges to Heroic badges as new content is released is also a great change. Sure it will have people crying that they were *x* badges away from buying some free loot and their badges were converted, but at least we won't have 4-5 different badges to keep track of.

Doing the same thing with arena will also be nice, people who are more active in rated BGs and arena would also start from scratch each new season and be able to stand out early in the season much like they do today, then also lose their points when new content comes out.

I'm still not sure I'll play the expansion since I've been looking to find an excuse to stop playing anyways, but I'm sure I'll pick it up and play it for awhile. I haven't really seen any reasons from the changes to the game to quit thus far, it's just been 5 years and I'm at the point where I only play because of the people I've played with for a long time and not because I truly enjoy the game. There just isn't anything better to play, but perhaps Starcraft2 will change that.
 
Terra said:
I'm torn on the issue. I'm a firm believer that 25man should offer more than just quantity on loot compared to the 10man, but I'm also tired of doing 10m groups that doesn't matter on my main. So I support the shared lockout, but not the loot idea.
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If 10man content was more difficult it won't really matter (imo). If weapons and trinkets were given a higher drop percentage in 25man vs 10 and the number of items dropped was something like 2 per boss 10man vs 6 per boss 25man then maybe it'd be nice - but both of those need to happen.

People aren't going to want to raid 25man and carry 5 or more bads for only 1-2 extra items, and I'd rather do a 10man for that weapon/trinket I'd like where I'm only up against friends for upgrades than do it in a 25man raid setting and have to go through loot council.
 
Smaqaho said:
That was to be expected, and is a great change. Changing Valor badges to Heroic badges as new content is released is also a great change. Sure it will have people crying that they were *x* badges away from buying some free loot and their badges were converted, but at least we won't have 4-5 different badges to keep track of.
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Hmm no, no one will cry about it because the loot that needed the Valor points to buy will be changed to require only the Hero points to buy when a new tier is released the and Valor points get converted to Hero points.
 
Smaqaho said:
If 10man content was more difficult it won't really matter (imo). If weapons and trinkets were given a higher drop percentage in 25man vs 10 and the number of items dropped was something like 2 per boss 10man vs 6 per boss 25man then maybe it'd be nice - but both of those need to happen.

People aren't going to want to raid 25man and carry 5 or more bads for only 1-2 extra items, and I'd rather do a 10man for that weapon/trinket I'd like where I'm only up against friends for upgrades than do it in a 25man raid setting and have to go through loot council.
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True, and even then it's a numbers game still in favor for 10s. I mean what is the general makeup of a 10s?

- 2 tanks
- 2 - 3 healers
- 5 - 6 DPS

Even if a boss drops 2 pieces each, in terms of role/spec you are still much more likely to get something versus 25s where you'll be competing with double your number in terms of role. And even then you could compound it down further based on piece (hunter/shaman mail, DPS cloth, 2H melee weapons, etc.) that if the intended item drops you would still only get competing against 1 maybe 2 people tops in 10s.

It may simply get to a point people will do all their guild stuff in 10s, and just do 25 in pugs for extra drops.
 
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