TreW_SoulJa
Veteran X
so tribes is just another tool to convert the world to capitalistic and individualistic ideals...
cool.
cool.
remember T:V devs, this mentality = bad
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ZooL
Veteran XX
Shinigami said:
even more hardcore Dynamix zealots (such as myself) started before that, its all connected back to arctic fox the names the plots the peoples the ideas its alll connected.
I still play ES 1 and 2 the playablility of those single player games are just asstounding, and not as linear as one might think they are.
Hey shin ya ever play a game called battledrome>? how bout project firestarter?
I agree with this. And for the detractors, the obvious counter to this is one or more equally skilled players on defense to stop the "cowboy". Two cowboys are better than one.Evita said:
destroyer193
Veteran X
yes, i would finally like a tribes that takes more teamwork to get things done.
I like the idea of requiring teamwork and all... but just take a look at Tribes 2.
The game requires a lot of teamwork to win. Some of the maps, like Sanctuary and Recalescence REQUIRE that someone help you if you want to cap.
Unfortunantly, most people just don't give a damn. As much as fun bombing the Hell out of the enemy is, most people just wait for their turn at the vehicle pad and get their shrike while spamming "Repair our generator!" I just loved it when I would grab the flag in Recalescence alone (since no one would help anyway) and I would run out into that massive chasm after rigidly escaping a group of lights and turrets. I would run out and a friendly shrike would fly overhead... I would spam "Help!" and nothing... they continued to fight and piss around without any thought of helping the helpless capper below as he's getting shot up by chainguns galore.
They just lose the idea of winning the game in turn of "I'm going to fuck around in this shrike and duel people, die, then do it again until the time runs out." I'm afraid that would probably happen in T:V for pubs if you make it so that a bunch of people have to work together to accomplish goals.
So here's my ideas to make teamplay a more viable option for T:V...
1. Before each match, put people and their teams in a lobby. In games like MechWarrior, you have to do this... and usually, when in a team-game pub, the people actually plan an attack with you!
In Tribes, you start off with a 15-second countdown and everyone holds their finger on the directional key to the direction to the vehicle pad. Make it so there's a 1-to-3 minute interval before loading the game with a map and ability for people to set waypoints and form "crews" (a small group of people who can mark each other, like a bomber crew, defense crew, capping crew, etc). This would probably get more people to play together instead of waiting hopelessly with a bomber outside of the base.
2. Improve the mic. The mic in Tribes 2 sounded like crap... I could never understand anyone who used it. Ventrilo has a very clean-sounding code to it, so why not employ those guys to put the technology into the game?
3. Make it so tailgunners can lock onto enemies easier. Nothing pissed me off more than when one lone shrike was able to take down an entire heavy transport because the 5 heavies couldn't get a lock. It should only take a tailgunner about a second to get a lock on an enemy. Also increase the strength of chaingun bullets and the length of the ELF for TGs.
The game requires a lot of teamwork to win. Some of the maps, like Sanctuary and Recalescence REQUIRE that someone help you if you want to cap.
Unfortunantly, most people just don't give a damn. As much as fun bombing the Hell out of the enemy is, most people just wait for their turn at the vehicle pad and get their shrike while spamming "Repair our generator!" I just loved it when I would grab the flag in Recalescence alone (since no one would help anyway) and I would run out into that massive chasm after rigidly escaping a group of lights and turrets. I would run out and a friendly shrike would fly overhead... I would spam "Help!" and nothing... they continued to fight and piss around without any thought of helping the helpless capper below as he's getting shot up by chainguns galore.
They just lose the idea of winning the game in turn of "I'm going to fuck around in this shrike and duel people, die, then do it again until the time runs out." I'm afraid that would probably happen in T:V for pubs if you make it so that a bunch of people have to work together to accomplish goals.
So here's my ideas to make teamplay a more viable option for T:V...
1. Before each match, put people and their teams in a lobby. In games like MechWarrior, you have to do this... and usually, when in a team-game pub, the people actually plan an attack with you!
In Tribes, you start off with a 15-second countdown and everyone holds their finger on the directional key to the direction to the vehicle pad. Make it so there's a 1-to-3 minute interval before loading the game with a map and ability for people to set waypoints and form "crews" (a small group of people who can mark each other, like a bomber crew, defense crew, capping crew, etc). This would probably get more people to play together instead of waiting hopelessly with a bomber outside of the base.
2. Improve the mic. The mic in Tribes 2 sounded like crap... I could never understand anyone who used it. Ventrilo has a very clean-sounding code to it, so why not employ those guys to put the technology into the game?
3. Make it so tailgunners can lock onto enemies easier. Nothing pissed me off more than when one lone shrike was able to take down an entire heavy transport because the 5 heavies couldn't get a lock. It should only take a tailgunner about a second to get a lock on an enemy. Also increase the strength of chaingun bullets and the length of the ELF for TGs.
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The problem with your thinking is that there is a fundamental imbalance in your game. Defense in T2 is NOT a teamwork job. It only takes one person touching the flag to send it home.
The offense on the other hand required teamwork against a D stacked game balance, and required an extended period of possession instead of a touch and score style situation. This fundamental imbalance is fine in a game where the offense is superior to the defense, like in T1 and in classic. It is not fine for a slow, defense superior game.
Arguably, the only things the offense had going as advantages were: the flares trumped the missiles, and the generators could stifle inventory. Sadly, the second one was very shaky, as remote inventories provided infinite LD supply.
The offense on the other hand required teamwork against a D stacked game balance, and required an extended period of possession instead of a touch and score style situation. This fundamental imbalance is fine in a game where the offense is superior to the defense, like in T1 and in classic. It is not fine for a slow, defense superior game.
Arguably, the only things the offense had going as advantages were: the flares trumped the missiles, and the generators could stifle inventory. Sadly, the second one was very shaky, as remote inventories provided infinite LD supply.
Zoolooman, who is that post directed to?
It was directed at Kefka and his assertion that T2 was "rebalanced" to force teamwork, when in fact, it was only unbalanced to force offensive teamwork.
Reasonably speaking, if the T2 flag had been designed with a "defend and time" return style, the gameplay would have taken a different path, because then defense would require constant vigilance to keep the objective home, while a good offense could sluggingly pull that flag across the map.
An example of a game like that can be found in TFC. The flag is not returnable by touch. Instead, it must be defended from offensive touch for 35 seconds (maybe 45), at which point it returns. If the offense so much as picks it up for a second, the timer is reset. The reason for this is because frankly, defense is VERY easy in TFC. It is quite possible to keep players from touching the flag for this period of time. The flag, forced to sit around, therefore becomes a focus point for teamwork based defense.
This is what Tribes 2 base would have needed to deal with the inventory trump, speed, and objective imbalances inherent in the games design.
Sorry Thrax, my one line reply turned into another post.
Edit: Addition. And boy, I'm nearly ranting into thin air. I guess I'm more attacking the general assumption that T2 base was a balanced game, and not specifically point for point Kefka's post. It was playable, but it was not balanced. Guess I've just got a little guff pent up in me from the good old days of massive T2 flamewars. ;]
Reasonably speaking, if the T2 flag had been designed with a "defend and time" return style, the gameplay would have taken a different path, because then defense would require constant vigilance to keep the objective home, while a good offense could sluggingly pull that flag across the map.
An example of a game like that can be found in TFC. The flag is not returnable by touch. Instead, it must be defended from offensive touch for 35 seconds (maybe 45), at which point it returns. If the offense so much as picks it up for a second, the timer is reset. The reason for this is because frankly, defense is VERY easy in TFC. It is quite possible to keep players from touching the flag for this period of time. The flag, forced to sit around, therefore becomes a focus point for teamwork based defense.
This is what Tribes 2 base would have needed to deal with the inventory trump, speed, and objective imbalances inherent in the games design.
Sorry Thrax, my one line reply turned into another post.
Edit: Addition. And boy, I'm nearly ranting into thin air. I guess I'm more attacking the general assumption that T2 base was a balanced game, and not specifically point for point Kefka's post. It was playable, but it was not balanced. Guess I've just got a little guff pent up in me from the good old days of massive T2 flamewars. ;]
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What exactly were you pointing at in your post? I was actually notioning to the help of offensive teams with the tailgunner and communication ideas. Comms wouldn't help defenders much... I mean, what would you communicate? "Help, there's a shrike coming in at full sp- nevermind. He's taken off with the flag already."
How would it make it harder for attackers with a boost to tailgunners? They're always getting shot down by AA turrets, defending shrikes, missiles, and what have you. How would it hinder the attackers by having a bomber that can stay up for a considerable ammount of time to whipe out defense?
Also, communication is more for offensive roles. In defense, everyone knows where you are. You don't move around much, so it isn't hard to say "Hey, come help me defend the flag." On the other hand, attackers are spread out over the map. If attackers could speak to one another and coordinate a strategy to attack, say a bomber leads in to get the defender's sights in the sky while two heavies slip into the main base and a capper + escort are taking off with the flag... that would be awesome - but you need communication to do that.
I'm all for the upping of offensive roles, but not loner offensive roles. People should have better access to communication and strategy, not the ability for a light to take out a turret with a chaingun and a few grenades.
How would it make it harder for attackers with a boost to tailgunners? They're always getting shot down by AA turrets, defending shrikes, missiles, and what have you. How would it hinder the attackers by having a bomber that can stay up for a considerable ammount of time to whipe out defense?
Also, communication is more for offensive roles. In defense, everyone knows where you are. You don't move around much, so it isn't hard to say "Hey, come help me defend the flag." On the other hand, attackers are spread out over the map. If attackers could speak to one another and coordinate a strategy to attack, say a bomber leads in to get the defender's sights in the sky while two heavies slip into the main base and a capper + escort are taking off with the flag... that would be awesome - but you need communication to do that.
I'm all for the upping of offensive roles, but not loner offensive roles. People should have better access to communication and strategy, not the ability for a light to take out a turret with a chaingun and a few grenades.
I would caution you against assumptions. This is not T2, there may not be tailgunners.Kefka said:
Njal Storm
Veteran X
Thrax Panda said:
.... if there is, can the tailgunners actually be a tailgunner? ie, warrior goes into this full 360 glass turret with quad-chains?
ok, maybe over-kill, but at least a more 'realistic' tailgunner.
There better be bombers. My mom is the PTA President; if you don't put bombers in, SHE'LL HAVE YOUR ASS!!!
What kind of sequel would it be if it didn't have one of the good things in the previous game?
To the other guy, I like bombers the way they are... it's looks cooler when a heavy leaps off of it and runs into the base during the confusion. Unless you could get some cool effect, like the bottom of the bomber falling out in a glass bubble and crashing into the base - kind of like something you'd see in Alien.
What kind of sequel would it be if it didn't have one of the good things in the previous game?
To the other guy, I like bombers the way they are... it's looks cooler when a heavy leaps off of it and runs into the base during the confusion. Unless you could get some cool effect, like the bottom of the bomber falling out in a glass bubble and crashing into the base - kind of like something you'd see in Alien.
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Most people's gripes were in that they couldn't be that heavy who flew in and shot the single mortar to put the enemy team in a world of shit.
"God damn it, now I can't royally fuck the enemy in an unstoppable manner like I could in Stonehenge/Raindance/Dangerous Crossing! WHAT THE FUCK AM I GOING TO DO NOW!? FUCK THESE CHANGES!"
Running around in spawn gear because some semi-skilled player figured out how to ski AND shoot a mortar at the same time just doesn't equate to a good time to me. I like fighting people who have to plan their attacks to be effective. These "I never, ever lose" types were the ones who seemed to bitch the most - any respectable player seemed to stick with the more complicated T2.
Yes, the speed cap on lights was a little bit too low, but that was about it.
Even still, the game comes after T2 when it comes to game-technology. I'm pretty sure Tribes 1 would've had a lot more to it if it wasn't such a crude engine from the days of old. So, why not include a version of the bomber in T:V? Bombers have existed since the 20th century, so I'm pretty sure the technology in even Earthsiege would be advanced enough to have a crude bomber or two in the sky.
Although, I'd like to see more land- and sea-vehicles. A mech or submarine would be awesome. Perhaps a movable MPB-like destroyer boat with two base turrets on it for large oceanic maps.
"God damn it, now I can't royally fuck the enemy in an unstoppable manner like I could in Stonehenge/Raindance/Dangerous Crossing! WHAT THE FUCK AM I GOING TO DO NOW!? FUCK THESE CHANGES!"
Running around in spawn gear because some semi-skilled player figured out how to ski AND shoot a mortar at the same time just doesn't equate to a good time to me. I like fighting people who have to plan their attacks to be effective. These "I never, ever lose" types were the ones who seemed to bitch the most - any respectable player seemed to stick with the more complicated T2.
Yes, the speed cap on lights was a little bit too low, but that was about it.
Even still, the game comes after T2 when it comes to game-technology. I'm pretty sure Tribes 1 would've had a lot more to it if it wasn't such a crude engine from the days of old. So, why not include a version of the bomber in T:V? Bombers have existed since the 20th century, so I'm pretty sure the technology in even Earthsiege would be advanced enough to have a crude bomber or two in the sky.
Although, I'd like to see more land- and sea-vehicles. A mech or submarine would be awesome. Perhaps a movable MPB-like destroyer boat with two base turrets on it for large oceanic maps.
[57th]cneal
Veteran X
Kefka said:
So despite the fact that you have an incredible array of defense and health, you still can't defend your base of these supped up HO entering your base and reaping havoc? Have you ever heard of I don't know, a door guard or turrets?
Kefka said:
Err, exactly how much of t1 did you play?
Either way, it's a shame that the T:V devs don't agree with you.
Really? Would you not consider [IE] a respectable team in t1? I don't recall them ever playing t2, at least not as a team. I doubt (but don't know for a fact) that many individual members cared much for the game as well.
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