[T:V] Talk to me about the TR2-ish gametype

To me, TR2 passes were:

1. Too easy.
2. Worthless.

Why worthless? Because you won the game by scoring via goals, and not making passes. You could score 250 points (quite easily) without making a single point of creativity (which meant your wasn't doing well passing). It meant that the team dedicated to scoring a goal would win over the team dedicated to passing for points.

It was crappy to earn 90% of the passing points that sit in the Jackpot, try a fancy pass for a creativity bonus, lose the flag to the opponent, and watch them cash in.

This is why I think two things should be implemented:

1. Team only jackpots, filled up by passes.
2. Jackpot decay when the flag is transferred to the control of the enemy team.

imho... the best "sport" gametype ive yet to see is Bombing Run for ut2k3.

it flopped, as well done as it was... and the "deathball" mod variation is a tad more popular, but only a very tiny niche community of self-professed 1337 players who basically make the 2 active servers completely un-fun for pubbing (yea, it's the 1337 pricks who ruin the pub, not the newbies... imho)

id LIKE to see sportsy gametypes be popular online... i just think there's a ton more hype than demand for it...

I just dont think there is a demand for sportsy type mods. Hardcore gamers follow the crowd just as much as newbies do.

The 3v3 tournament I think did the best solution for solving the goal scoring/creativity argument. One timers got you a +200 point bonus rather than a +50 and they were the only to score.

You can jumble the numbers for yourself, but what it ultimatly ment was that creativity/possesion of the flag was a tiebreaker if the goal points were tied.


Because face it, creativity is good, but if outscore a team, you deserve to win.

Higher points for goals = Good.

Make creativity important when it MATTERS, breaking a tie game.

i just realized how often i thought flatscan and falhawk were one person....

talk about confusing this thread is it

ZenTseTse said:

id LIKE to see sportsy gametypes be popular online... i just think there's a ton more hype than demand for it...

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there is a ton more demand than supply of it actually

Kingky said:

i just realized how often i thought flatscan and falhawk were one person....

talk about confusing this thread is it

Click to expand...

I think Falhawk will kill you for saying this .

Two quick points for whoever designs TRV's scoring system...

1. Incentives matter: what you reward is what you will get gameplay-wise. If you prioritize goals, people won't focus on passing. If you prioritize passing, people won't focus on shooting. A balanced scoring system (e.g. passing and shooting) will make the largest number of people happy. While I no longer play TR2, it is my understanding that people really don't focus on passing in competitive play - everybody just tries to set up 1xers.

2. A balanced scoring system enable's different styles of play. This is a very, very good thing. Diversity of viable approaches will give the game tremendous longevity.

Most big-name sports have multiple styles that are possible depending on the talents/proclivities of the team.

Consider...

Some football teams are pass oriented, some are run oriented, some run balanced attacks

Some basketball teams are contact-oriented (e.g. Riley's NY Knicks), some are pure finesse, some are hybrids

Some soccer teams "run the field," some run precision-pass oriented coordinated attacks

TRV should provide similar complexity. If TRV is to succeed, like any game, it needs to be intuitive with a deep skill curve.

A balanced scoring system will go a long way towards making this happen.

What if the jackpot were shared?

Here's what I mean:

The shared jackpot is like a bank of points. You take points out of this central bank, and get them for your team by scoring.

250 point jackpot up for grabs. My team completing passes takes points out of the shared bank. If we score a goal, we get those points.

Now, let's say my team has 100 points, and your team has 150 (thus the jackpot is empty and the teams are trying to score a goal to get the points). I complete a pass worth 30 points. Well, since there's no money left in the shared bank, I steal it from you. So now your team has 120 points, and mine has 130. So if we were to score, we'd get 130 points added to our score and we start all over again like it is now.

Just a thought.

But then once the other team is at 0 and the jackpot is at zero, you have to score. No more points can be made.

Colosus said:

But then once the other team is at 0 and the jackpot is at zero, you have to score. No more points can be made.

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Of course. Scoring goals is part of the game.

You can't just sit around and wait for the jackpot to get to 250 and go score. You have to work to get your points AND hold on to them until you can score thus emphasizing flag (or whatever object) control and possession.

How about a shot clock?

Oooooo But it'd have to be longer than 20 seconds because you have to build up points.

Thrax Panda said:

How about a shot clock?

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Hadn't thought of that. For every second over you lose a point in the jackpot, or it is zeroed out or somehting?

There's already a "toss clock." If you don't get rid of the flag u r DED.

Have a shot clock and when it runs out, start the decay?

i still like the idea of creative passes building up a jackpot for a team, when you lose posession the jp goes down to a default value (not zero, but low). Then the other team can try to build it up before scoring.

Thrax Panda said:

How about a shot clock?

Click to expand...

i don't really like the idea of a shot clock, it'd push for goals too quickly. let teams benefit from controlling the flag and making creative passes..but if they lose posession the jackpot is reset.

Another idea on top of that would be to rewards passes with less points the more a team employs a certain type. Think Tony Hawk Pro Skater...the first time you do a 900 you get like 11,000 points. The next time its 9,900, then 6,000 etc. It'd force teams to stay creative in their passing.

I like having the risk/reward of a jp resetting if a team loses posession. It'd make matches more intense. Your team may be down by like 500 points and your jackpot is currently at 400 points...you've got 2:00 left in the game....do you try to keep the flag moving until you're over 500 or do you try to cash it in and then get the flag back somehow?

that'd kick ass.

imho tr2 was quite ugly and thats why i lost interest quite soon after i tried it in betatest..yes, not because of gameplay but because of ugliness


but what it is in t:v looks damn good.

Flatscan said:

Two quick points for whoever designs TRV's scoring system...

1. Incentives matter: what you reward is what you will get gameplay-wise. If you prioritize goals, people won't focus on passing. If you prioritize passing, people won't focus on shooting. A balanced scoring system (e.g. passing and shooting) will make the largest number of people happy. While I no longer play TR2, it is my understanding that people really don't focus on passing in competitive play - everybody just tries to set up 1xers.

2. A balanced scoring system enable's different styles of play. This is a very, very good thing. Diversity of viable approaches will give the game tremendous longevity.

Most big-name sports have multiple styles that are possible depending on the talents/proclivities of the team.

Consider...

Some football teams are pass oriented, some are run oriented, some run balanced attacks

Some basketball teams are contact-oriented (e.g. Riley's NY Knicks), some are pure finesse, some are hybrids

Some soccer teams "run the field," some run precision-pass oriented coordinated attacks

TRV should provide similar complexity. If TRV is to succeed, like any game, it needs to be intuitive with a deep skill curve.

A balanced scoring system will go a long way towards making this happen.

Click to expand...

IMO this had more to do with the size of the maps than it did the scoring system. While in theory with the current scoring system you don't have to pass to win, if the maps were bigger (even the size of sols) it would become necessary to pass to win. The maps being so small made it very difficult to get any kind of passing going because you were constantly being dm'd. If the maps had been bigger passing would have played a much bigger role and dm'ing wouldn't have been as big a problem as it was. If you go back to 6v6 in the beginning, even before people understood / tried to take advantage of creativity, passing was essential. You had to pass to maintain possession long enough to score.

Also as much as I bitched about it goal stacking, to an extent, made passing even more important. You had to make quick effective passes to get to the goal before the defense was ready. You couldn't just let them pass it around. and then cowboy unless you were ready to beat 4 people.

With regards to your soccer and basketball comments, I believe they are examples of how rewarding passing directly is not necessary. They don't get 1 point for a successfull pass in basketball or 1/2 a goal for a pass in soccer. It is just necessary to achieve the main objective.

I'm not really looking to get into this big argument again but I just wanted to point out that I don't believe the points for passing and scoring need to be equal for passing to be a part of the game. There are other aspects (maps, goal type (1 timers, size), etc) that can make passing essential without directly rewarding it.

PS: I like the decaying jp idea.

Falhawk said:

i still like the idea of creative passes building up a jackpot for a team, when you lose posession the jp goes down to a default value (not zero, but low). Then the other team can try to build it up before scoring.

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Perhaps that is how the decay should work. If we lose possession (starting the instant the other team picks up the flag) jackpot decay starts (1 point every second or so) until we regain possession.