Vengeance Vengeance

[Marweas]

Marweas, you made this post in reference to me slamming the marketing of T:V. I suggest to you it was terrible, yet you posted the above quote. So you think the marketing was well done? Please explain. The 43,000 copies sold (this doesn't include returns I gather) was what you were hoping for? Next time aim a little higher my friend.

I believe I was referring to you blaming Guy Welch for the box, the marketing, or.... well, anything, for that matter.

 

[Teflonatron]

So know one knows how long VUG have the tribes ip for (or patent on).

If this hasn't been answered already, VUG will own the copyright for Tribes until ~2090. (copyrighted works for hire get 90 years or protection in the U.S.) link

 

[NetAtNite]

ok lets look at each of these "scapegoats"

VUG, ok I agree there but don't you think that is a pretty big group of people to point a finger at? Do we blame the guys that vacuum the offices after hours?

You agree, but you want me to name all the people involved? Dumb comment.

IG, A group of programmers that filled an order placed by VUG and worked under direction of Sierra employees who answered to VUG nothing was released to the public until Sierra quality control looked it over. mmm k kinda misplaced blame I think.

Sierra ceased to exist long ago. It is nothing more then a brand name. Ig gave Vug a game that doesn't work and is poorly coded. OFN

Thrax, Ok I can see how Thrax can take some blame after all he was the visable sierra representative and the person the beta team answered to. But remember he was long gone before VUG dropped support for T:V therefore I will give you partial credit for this one.

Marweas, Marketing guy, has no programming time on the game, his job was to basically promote T:V and to try to involve the community in its development. Then he was fired before the game even went to beta yeah he has alot to answer for

Usually getting fired is not a sign of 'a job well done' is it!

Guy Welch, Our only representative from VUG so by association he has the responsibility of answering for his superiors decisions. Is there any evidence that Guy was involved in the decision to drop support for T:V? I don't think there is, The only thing he is guilty of is releasing information his boss told him it was ok to release. Again partial credit but only by association.

Again you agree but only partially? If Guy's job was to market T:V and be a liaison between customers and VUG (I assume this from his posts) then he failed miserably. He took the very basics of good marketing and threw them out the window. Every course I took in a 3-year marketing diploma had a common thread. Listen to your clientele, communicate with your clientele, under-promise and over-deliver. It isn't rocket science and it is abundantly clear that Guy and the entire marketing department failed completely.

 

[NetAtNite]

I believe I was referring to you blaming Guy Welch for the box, the marketing, or.... well, anything, for that matter.

Never said a word about the box art. Anyone who blames a cardboard box is not terribly bright. Lol, I just insulted most of the people here in one fell swoop.

As far as Guy Welch goes, if he was in fact the lead marketer then he did a horrible job. The numbers speak for themselves.

Furthermore, I don't think T:V is a bad game at all. It needs work obviously but that is not the source of my frustration. This game could have been outstanding but it was destined to fail by so many people not doing their job well. Guy included. And if you want specifics, just ask.

 

[Flatscan]

One potentially big reason why Vengeance didn't do well is that it was orphaned by VUG several times during its development. As a result no one person "owned" the project.

Inevitably I'm sure this led to the project being deprioritized versus other projects that were wholly owned by Guy and others.

The implications of the above are that the "foster parents" can just blame previous "dumbasses" who are no longer at the company.

 

[Teflonatron]

Look, not to stomp on any toes...but in what competition does that count as an "All Star team" for Tribes?

Yes. I am from GarageGames. I did Tribes scripting work way back in the day, and I played for Synergy for a while too. I was at the first TribesCon, I've been a fan and a contributer since day 1 of Tribes, and I want T1 again just as bad. (And still play it almost every day)

One of the problems with doing a game that is almost exactly like Tribes but isn't Tribes is what I'd call the "off by one shade" problem. When you have two colors that are almost the same, but are one shade off, it looks worse than if you have two colors that are like 5 shades off. It's the same way with doing a lot of things. If you try to animate a human, you basically get a better looking picture progressivly as you get more skill, then it starts to look "worse" because it's close enough to 'real' to be compared with something real, and it pales in comparison. There's a mental-disconnect that goes on before that. I'm afraid that trying to do a Tribes game without it being Tribes would be much the same way. (Ala T:V) We would rather join everyone else in saying, "Tribes was a great game," and being right, than to have everyone know us as the guys who tried to rip-off Tribes and fucked it up or something.

This man speaketh the truth!

 

[Marweas]

By the time Guy Welch inherited T:V all the marketing and business decisions had been made. "Lead marketer?" You must be thinking mouseketeer.

 

[Killer Angel]

Marweas for all he has done

 

[NetAtNite]

By the time Guy Welch inherited T:V all the marketing and business decisions had been made. "Lead marketer?" You must be thinking mouseketeer.

Wrong again. Marketing NEVER STOPS!!!! There is plenty that Guy could have done but did not. Again, I don't know how important he is in the eyes of his employer and perhaps he is merely a peon. That said, I could have hundreds if not thousands of people try the demo within 4 weeks. I can also promise you that had I been in control of the marketing, the absolute hatred of VUG that exists in this community would not exist! Honestly, this stuff isn't really that hard.

 

[Teflonatron]

Excusing the early UEs, [t2] still has the best net code ever put together and many folks making successful titles today read Mark's papers.

Do you happen to have a link to his papers? I'd love to give them a read.

 

[Miracle]

Do you happen to have a link to his papers? I'd love to give them a read.

Well he's part of an open source project at SourceForge which has its own website. Several of the essays in the documentaion section were afloat on the net in some form long before TNL came together. (e.g. 2000-01).

 

[SmOkkin' Joe]

fuck it

 

[Teflonatron]

Thanks Miracle

 

[Excal]

You agree, but you want me to name all the people involved? Dumb comment.



Sierra ceased to exist long ago. It is nothing more then a brand name. Ig gave Vug a game that doesn't work and is poorly coded. OFN



Usually getting fired is not a sign of 'a job well done' is it!



Again you agree but only partially? If Guy's job was to market T:V and be a liaison between customers and VUG (I assume this from his posts) then he failed miserably. He took the very basics of good marketing and threw them out the window. Every course I took in a 3-year marketing diploma had a common thread. Listen to your clientele, communicate with your clientele, under-promise and over-deliver. It isn't rocket science and it is abundantly clear that Guy and the entire marketing department failed completely.

My point was that when you try to place blame on individuals that obviously had no control over the direction of the game it is very easy to shoot holes in your logic. Marketing departments are handed a product and are told to promote it, Both Marweas and Guy did the best they could within the limits that were imposed on them. Back when we were putting WOFN together Marweas was very involved in the planning process and shared with us some of the plans that were originally on the table to promote T:V but as I have stated Marweas was fired before any of the plans could be implimented. Trust me on this the original marketing plan was alot larger than what was actually done. So again my point is you cannot blame Marweas for decisions made by his superiors. The same goes for Guy, Thrax, and pretty much anyone else that ever posted here. They all had someone that they had to answer to. In your limited vision of what was going on I can see how you would think they would be the culprits to blame but again your view was limited and so your logic is flawed. What you are doing is like blaming the cashier for the price of a can of beans at the grocery store, They represent the store but they do not make the decisions, they just have to listen to the complaints from the general public.

 

[NetAtNite]

My point was that when you try to place blame on individuals that obviously had no control over the direction of the game it is very easy to shoot holes in your logic. Marketing departments are handed a product and are told to promote it, Both Marweas and Guy did the best they could within the limits that were imposed on them. Back when we were putting WOFN together Marweas was very involved in the planning process and shared with us some of the plans that were originally on the table to promote T:V but as I have stated Marweas was fired before any of the plans could be implimented. Trust me on this the original marketing plan was alot larger than what was actually done. So again my point is you cannot blame Marweas for decisions made by his superiors. The same goes for Guy, Thrax, and pretty much anyone else that ever posted here. They all had someone that they had to answer to. In your limited vision of what was going on I can see how you would think they would be the culprits to blame but again your view was limited and so your logic is flawed. What you are doing is like blaming the cashier for the price of a can of beans at the grocery store, They represent the store but they do not make the decisions, they just have to listen to the complaints from the general public.

With all due respect Excal, you haven't got a clue. You seem to think that marketing is about money spent on advertising. In your ignorance you have decided that VUG tied the hands of Guy and Marweas. Your wrong on all counts. Let me use your example of the cashier in the grocery store and the can of beans. A customer walks into your store and says the beans are too expensive. You tell the customer that its the store owners decision and it's not your problem! The same customer walks into my store and complains about the price and I agree with him. I tell him how hard we all have to work for a can of beans. I ask him to tell me how difficult his life is. I tell him that while the can of beans is expensive, the beans are what he really wants. They are healthy and good and if he spends the money for those beans, he is a little better then the next customer that walks through the door and won't pay. In the end, he buys the beans.

Please re-read this...because THAT is marketing!!!!!

 

[Celestial]

With all due respect Excal, you haven't got a clue. You seem to think that marketing is about money spent on advertising. In your ignorance you have decided that VUG tied the hands of Guy and Marweas. Your wrong on all counts. Let me use your example of the cashier in the grocery store and the can of beans. A customer walks into your store and says the beans are too expensive. You tell the customer that its the store owners decision and it's not your problem! The same customer walks into my store and complains about the price and I agree with him. I tell him how hard we all have to work for a can of beans. I ask him to tell me how difficult his life is. I tell him that while the can of beans is expensive, the beans are what he really wants. They are healthy and good and if he spends the money for those beans, he is a little better then the next customer that walks through the door and won't pay. In the end, he buys the beans.

Please re-read this...because THAT is marketing!!!!!

No, that's called how you deal with people effectively. Please read, "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. It was written in 1936 and to this day stands as the best book in dealing with people.

Marketing is a little bit of both of course...but money plays a substantial part. Just look at the XBOX campaign and what Bill Gates spent (1 billion or something?) on marketing.

 

[Excal]

With all due respect Excal, you haven't got a clue. You seem to think that marketing is about money spent on advertising. In your ignorance you have decided that VUG tied the hands of Guy and Marweas. Your wrong on all counts. Let me use your example of the cashier in the grocery store and the can of beans. A customer walks into your store and says the beans are too expensive. You tell the customer that its the store owners decision and it's not your problem! The same customer walks into my store and complains about the price and I agree with him. I tell him how hard we all have to work for a can of beans. I ask him to tell me how difficult his life is. I tell him that while the can of beans is expensive, the beans are what he really wants. They are healthy and good and if he spends the money for those beans, he is a little better then the next customer that walks through the door and won't pay. In the end, he buys the beans.

Please re-read this...because THAT is marketing!!!!!

I am sorry but if I walk into a grocery store and complain because they are over charging for a can of beans and I get a sob story about how hard the bagboy has to work it is not going to make me reconsider my opinion. I guess I should have used a different analogy, ANYWAY, I am not saying anything about what marketing is or isn't I was making the point that you are placing the blame for anything that is wrong with T:V too low if you are pointing at Marweas, or Guy. You might want to re-read what I wrote. All the marketing in the world is not going to help the fact that the game has problems and did not live up to it's potental or the fact that VUG dropped support of it, those decisions are made by people on a much higher level than the marketing department.

 

[NetAtNite]

No, that's called how you deal with people effectively. Please read, "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie.

Read it twice and took the Dale Carnegie public speaking course. You are offering semantics which is a waste of my valuable time...

Marketing is a little bit of both of course...but money plays a substantial part. Just look at the XBOX campaign and what Bill Gates spent (1 billion or something?) on marketing.

Sorry, did I ever argue that a marketing campaign requires money? No, I didn't. The money spent on T:V was allocated unwisely but that has never been my point. Guy/Marweas/Vug/Ig or whomever did a terrible job marketing T:V. That is a fact! There is no debate here. T:V was released by Vug/IG and they succeeded in creating an atmosphere of absolute hatred towards themselves. You think this is good marketing? With no money spent, I could have had the vast majority of TW singing the praises of VUG/IG instead of the hateful bile that is rampant here. Look, Marweas himself is plotting against the company that employed him. What further proof do you need? T:V might end up in a marketing textbook of what not to do! And please, before you argue further consider that the game was in development for 3 years and millions were spent on its development and marketing and it is an abject failure. Whatever you may think refutes my statements, nothing changes the fact that 43,000 copies or less were purchased! Disaster!

Lastly, please remember that I actually like T:V. You think this brings me pleasure?

 

[Got Haggis?]

Wrong again. Marketing NEVER STOPS!!!! There is plenty that Guy could have done but did not. Again, I don't know how important he is in the eyes of his employer and perhaps he is merely a peon. That said, I could have hundreds if not thousands of people try the demo within 4 weeks. I can also promise you that had I been in control of the marketing, the absolute hatred of VUG that exists in this community would not exist! Honestly, this stuff isn't really that hard.

what game publisher do you work for again?

the only thing i blame guy for is not coming around tw more often. even though he coudln't tell us anything, he still could have come here and apologized...hung out some..much like i'm sure marweas would have done. all we got is a post on the offical vug forums that was very very blunt with no explanation (for that, we had to find out from a gamespot article that t:v only sold 43k copies)

 

[KnightMare]

please stop quoting the idiot, I have him on pignore for a reason.