[Israel-Palestine] "an end to the occupation"

[ZooL]

When the US gives Texas, New Mexico and California back to Mexico, I'll consider it.

WAit wait...should the USA donate those states back to "MEXICO" or "SPAIN"

Cause as i am aware of it...spaniards and indigeonous peoples of mexico are quite a different race of people. considering mexico was created officially in its current capacity on September 16, 1810 after it broke from being a land of spain.

Mexico never OWNED california, it does not belong to their people. And MEXICO never owned those others for that fact.

So lets give them back to spain.

 

[Cogito²]

The usual apologist either/or arguments.

Heaven forbid somebody just acknowledge the vile, extreme side to israeli history. If you want to make comparisons to arab terrorism, feel free. That isnt my point. I'm merely saying there's a long, long history of ultra-right wing zionist militancy that has to be addressed realistically.

LOL I love it. "The solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict is to realistically address the ultra-right wing zionist militancy." Yes, pointing out purported massacres in the 1948 war for independence will solve all our problems. Actually, what it does is allow you to justify Palestinian terror by claiming that "hey, Israel did it sixty years ago, why can't the Palestinians do it today?!" What a crock of shit.

There's a reason the IDF themselves were expecting a huge violent affair when they emptied gaza settlements. It won't be so smooth in the west bank.

But guess what? the IDF sacked up and emptied the Gaza settlements, with basically no disruption to normal Israeli life. It wasn't a 'huge violent affair.'

Hmm, surely you wont read about how the zionists started the terrorism in the middle east in your american newspaper. (i use the term "zionist" to differentiate these radicals and militants form mainstream israelis and even the wider jewish community which certainly never engaged in or condoned this behavior)

- Assassination of Lord Moyne (british politician), 1944: Lehi/Irgun
- Assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte, 1948: Lehi/Irgun, killed UN mediator in charge of the Israel/Palestine dispute
- Bab AL-Amound gate, Jerusalem, 1947: 16 killed (by Irgun)
- Baldat al-Shaikh, 1947: 60 dead (killed in there homes by ~200 palmakh)
- Yehiday, 1947: approx 22 dead (drive-bys on village)
- Jaffa, 1948: 30 kills, 100 wounded (Irgun)
- The King David Massacre, 1946: 92 dead (terrorist bomb by Irgun)
- Dawayma, 1948: about 200 women and children hiding in caves are told to come out. They are slaughtered.
- Al Lied, 1948: 426 people killed, half in a mosque
- Jerusalem, 1948: 50 people butchered with axes and guns (jefa brigade)
- Haifa, 1948: 31 killed (terrorist bomb)
- Husieniah, 1948: 30 dead (terrorist bomb, haganah)
- Khisas, 1947: approx 10 dead (terrorist strike with nades/guns)
- Kukhtar, 1947: 5 arab children dead (terrorist bomb)
- Semiramis Hotel, 1948: approx 30 dead (terrorist bomb under Ben-Gurion command)
- Dair Yasin, 1948: Tsel, Irgun and Hagana brigades killed hundreds of civilians in cold blood. Men were paraded around town before being executed. 250 bodies of mostly women and children... were found in a mass grave.
- Naser Al Din, 1948: village of 90. 50 killed (Lehi)
- Tantura, 1948: 200 people butchered
- Beit Daras, Majdal, etc, 1948: women and children fleeing are slaughtered outside villages
- etc

Indian massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DOWN WITH THE USA! MURDERING TERRORISTS!!!!!

First of all, this wasn't the "start" of terrorism by any stretch of the imagination, Arabs rioted against Jews in the 1920s and killed hundreds. Second, a good deal of the aforementioned killings are against military targets. Third, this is fucking irrelevant as the last shit I took. These are the actions of pre-national military groups SIXTY YEARS AGO and you're using them to justify CURRENT Palestinian terrorism. Do you seriously not see how this is counter fucking productive?! In your mind, should Palestinians basically be given a free-for-all until the raw number of Jews killed equals the raw number of Palestinians killed since 1947? You think this will somehow bring about peace?

This zionist umbrella organization BECAME Likud... the ruling Israeli party. These great "liberators" and terrorists became Israel's most prestigious leaders. The Likud party still has language in their charter that denies the right of non-jews to exist west of the Jordan.

This is NOT merely historical reflection.

There's going to be trouble... just like there was the last times serious peace progress was being made.

Read my last post about Likud. God you're a tool.

This is the CURRENT majority ruling parties' view:

Labor and Kadima both advocate further negotiations, but the supposed non-existence of a partner for peace on the Palestinian side (following Hamas victory in the 2006 Palestinian elections) brings them to strongly consider "shaping Israel's permanent borders" through a unilateral withdrawal from most of the West Bank, leaving in place the large settlement blocs and the Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem. These borders will be marked by the completed separation barrier. Kadima leader Ehud Olmert used the term "Convergence Plan" (תכנית ההתכנסות).

What part of 'unilateral withdrawal from most of the West Bank' do you not understand?!

 

[TseTse]

Flame me all you want... try to pretend im saying something im not... and deny the facts of history all you want (about likud, irgun, radical zionism, settler movement, etc).

But the bottom line is while the vast majority of Israelis cant wait to get out of the West Bank, there are many who will not allow a peaceful 2-state solution.

Period.

That goes for both arab and jewish extremists.

 

[Cogito²]

Flame me all you want... try to pretend im saying something im not... and deny the facts of history all you want (about likud, irgun, radical zionism, settler movement, etc).

But the bottom line is while the vast majority of Israelis cant wait to get out of the West Bank, there are many who will not allow a peaceful 2-state solution.

Period.

That goes for both arab and jewish extremists.

I didn't "deny" ANYTHING, just showing that what you are spinning and implying:

1. Likud is the dominant, ruling party in Israel. (wrong)
2. Likud is as extremist as Palestinian terrorism. (wrong)
3. This justifies Palestinian terrorism somehow. (wrong)
4. Pre-national military/civilian attacks somehow justify 2007 Palestinian terrorism (wrong)

... is either vastly, vastly overblown or complete and utter bullshit.

You won't even admit that CURRENT (relevant)(2nd intifada) Palestinian terrorism is a drag on peacemaking. The closest you came was admitting that Palestinians "might want to have chosen better tactics." What does that fucking say? That you put more weight on 1940s pre-independence attacks than CURRENT terrorism in the CURRENT climate. It says you're an apologist for Palestinian terrorism, which disgusts me.

 

[TseTse]

1. Likud is the dominant, ruling party in Israel. (wrong)
2. Likud is as extremist as Palestinian terrorism. (wrong)
3. This justifies Palestinian terrorism somehow. (wrong)
4. Pre-national military/civilian attacks somehow justify 2007 Palestinian terrorism (wrong)

Stop bullshitting and attacking strawman arguments. It's retarded.

If you want to pretend that there isnt still violent extremists among Israelis, go ahead.

Just remember this name: Yitzhak Rabin

Even with a peace deal, there will be violence from both sides' extremists for years to come, in Jerusalem.

 

[SegaRob]

i can't tell the sarcasm apart from the downright crazy people..

 

[Cogito²]

Stop bullshitting and attacking strawman arguments. It's retarded.

If you want to pretend that there isnt still violent extremists among Israelis, go ahead.

Just remember this name: Yitzhak Rabin

Even with a peace deal, there will be violence from both sides' extremists for years to come, in Jerusalem.

So by your logic, Israel is controlled by Likud (it isn't), which has its roots in right-wing extremism (far more benign than you'll ever admit), of which this man is somehow connected (he isn't)? By my logic, you're a fucking moron. This guy was a one-off psycho.

EVERYONE in Israel condemned Rabin's assassination; Amir was tried, convicted, and is currently rotting to death in jail. His parole has been refused twice and a law was passed forbidding even the highest-level pardon for the murder of a prime minister. So don't try and make some ridiculous connection between the Israeli right wing and this nutjob. It just makes you look stupid.

And I guarantee that far more Israeli civilians will be killed by Palestinian terrorists than Palestinians killed by Israeli terrorists once that peace deal is reached. Guarantee it.

 

[TseTse]

So by your logic

Again.,.. you cant have a sincere dialog without misrepresenting what folks say.

I could give a fuck about your retarded argument about which side will kill more down the road. Too many innocent people have died on both sides.

Stop apologizing for it.

And obviously not EVERYBODY in israel had a problem with Rabin's death.

 

[Cogito²]

Again.,.. you cant have a sincere dialog without misrepresenting what folks say.

I could give a fuck about your retarded argument about which side will kill more down the road. Too many innocent people have died on both sides.

Stop apologizing for it.

I didn't misrepresent shit. You associated Yigal Amir with right wing extremists, which you claim is represented by Likud. You have said several times in this thread that Likud is/was the dominant party in Israel. Therefore you're connecting this fucking nutjob with somehow being a dominant player in Israeli politics, and throwing in a picture of the deceased, to boot. Oh, and now you're accusing me of ignoring/apologizing for the innocent people dead on both sides. Cute, real cute. Let it be known: I have a lot more sympathy for dead if they're innocent civilians than fucking terrorists. You clearly don't.

This was YOUR argument, and I can see right through it. Stop dodging the truth.

 

[TseTse]

I didn't misrepresent shit. You associated Yigal Amir with right wing extremists, which you claim is represented by Likud. You have said several times in this thread that Likud is/was the dominant party in Israel.

Stop making shit up and having a retarded strawman argument.

Irgun was the proto-Likud and there was certainly a fuckload of terrorism activity on the zionists side pre-independence. And even much of the war for israel's early survival included a lot of really nasty behavior against civilians.

My point THERE is just that zionism has a very dark side.

And in contemporary times, we can still see that dark side in the settler movement and remaining in the Likud charter. Is Likud currently in power? No, but neither is Hamas yet you hear people holding Hamas against the Palestinian government as if they can currently control them. It's hypocrisy.

More to the point... there remain real radical elements in Israel who will not live in peace with a 2-state solution. I am not interested in arguing which side's radicals will kill more. That's besides the point and speculation. As far as i'm concernd, Israel has a viable threat of being hit by WMDs in the coming decades and while life has been pretty bad for the palestinians... they arent facing THAT prospect.

The international community needs to show leadership and offer security forces and some responsibility for Jerusalem.

Jerusalem was SUPPOSED to be under international control and it's only a matter of time before that comes to fruition. It can either happen through warfare and global exasperation, or it can some from wisdom of both sides realizing the inevitable.

But who am i kidding. You wont read this post. YOu'll just hit reply and start spewing about how im some arab terrorism supporter like so many other idiots do when faced with objective analysis of the situation.

 

[Cogito²]

Stop making shit up and having a retarded strawman argument.

Irgun was the proto-Likud and there was certainly a fuckload of terrorism activity on the zionists side pre-independence. And even much of the war for israel's early survival included a lot of really nasty behavior against civilians.

heh so Irgun-->Likud-->Right wing extremism-->in power in Israel-->Yigal Amir--> assassination?

This gets better and better.

And in contemporary times, we can still see that dark side in the settler movement and remaining in the Likud charter. Is Likud currently in power? No, but neither is Hamas yet you hear people holding Hamas against the Palestinian government as if they can currently control them. It's hypocrisy.

Hamas was elected into power by the Palestinians because Palis thought putting terrorists in charge was a good idea. Likud was recently elected OUT of power by the Israelis because they realized a more centrist approach was reasonable. (but hey, no, Irgun's actions in 1946 is way, WAY more pertinent today.)

More to the point... there remain real radical elements in Israel who will not live in peace with a 2-state solution.

Well, I'll play your six decade old thing:

In 1948 these Dark Side of the Zionism Moon right-wing extremist radicals who supposedly ran Israel happily accepted a 2-state solution.

...others in the region did not.

The international community needs to show leadership and offer security forces and some responsibility for Jerusalem.

Jerusalem was SUPPOSED to be under international control and it's only a matter of time before that comes to fruition. It can either happen through warfare and global exasperation, or it can some from wisdom of both sides realizing the inevitable.

Name one way in which the current control of Jerusalem is unsatisfactory.
The freedom of travel to any religious site for all its citizens? The fantastic infrastructure? The strong economy? What?

Bullshit my ass international control, just because people want to travel there with no restrictions for historical reasons doesn't mean making it an international city is a good idea. Who's gonna run it? The UN? Please. Jerusalem will be an 'internationally-controlled' city when London, Paris, and New York do for the same cultural reasons.

You'll just hit reply and start spewing about how im some arab terrorism supporter like so many other idiots do when faced with objective analysis of the situation.

You are not being objective. Not even fucking close. (<--not sarcasm).

 

[Boomyguy]

tsetse, if you want to be a real conservative you need to show more support of isreal.
Just ask "do Isrealis kill themselves on schoolbusses??!!!!"
while faking outrage.

that is how it's done.

And whatever you do never bring up the 40 year occupation.

 

[MST3K-rules]

It's fine that Bush is saying this stuff. And the crazy right wingers and Israel groups acting like he just abandoned Israel are off their fucking rockers.

But the problem is simple. Bush has NO credibility. None whatsoever. The US has a terrible reputation thanks to him so I don't see how we can be seen as a fair bargaining partner or mediator in the eyes of the middle east. In fact, that's probably why Bush is saying this. To try to get some credibility, and that's fine, but he's trying to do this too late and as a stupid afterthought to save his presidency. He's legacy hunting and both sides are gonna be able to smell the US's lack of genuine commitment to getting this deal done.