To the tw religious ppl

Down here in Florida it's been raining for a month, record rain fall. Out in California they had fires for 2 months. Imagine if this happened 2k years ago, and someone wrote that down in a book which eventually became the Bible. They would have wrote that the Earth flooded for a month or burned of fire. When in reality, it's only a little part of the earth. Yet to those people, it was the entire planet.

See how whacked these stories can be when they are told 100 years after they happened by people probably drunk on wine.

Human evolution, gravity, global climate change, and second and third order chemical reactions are all falsifiable. Simple experiments that can be duplicated and reviewed can disprove any of these things, at any time. Religion, by it's own definitions cannot.

I scrolled through Amadeus and TPK occupying pages of what they think is argument, and it's amazing there are 2 people on earth that think this is a debate. There is evidence, or there isn't. Nobody in science has ventured into that shitshow in 20 years.

If you really want to be an anti-theist like me, your homework is easy. Do not bother yourself with

God Is Not Great : How Religion Poisons Everything - Walmart.com - Walmart.com

or

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, Paperback | Barnes

Don't buy either one.

Start with the Talmud. Read it cover to cover, without coaching or help.
Second step is the Holy Bible. Cover to cover, start with Genesis in the Old Testament, end with Revelation. Proceed from there to the Koran (they say you don't understand it completely unless you read it in Arabic. .whatever, just read the translated version, it won't take long)

There is no argument I can make (other than point to lack of evidence) that can eschew religion more than a person reading it for themselves. I've yet to meet the person that has read the bible with no coaching, got the the end, looked up, and said, "yeah, this is the shit."

Ah man, another you turn into a fart in the wind when you die guy...

The Pumpkin King said:

Victory mentality, can you drop it? Looks like no.

[...]

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Ok, we need to take a minute on this one, because by now the problem has become very obvious.

You keep paying lip service to evidence and scrutiny, but when I apply them to your beliefs, it's suddenly "victory mentality".


If your friend tells you your car is on fire, but you don't have a car, is it "victory mentality" to tell him he's wrong? Or should you grab the fire extinguisher and go look for your nonexistent burning car?

If someone builds an airplane with tiny little flimsy wings and asks you to fly it off a cliff, is it "victory mentality" to insist on a demonstration that the thing can fly? Or should you just be agreeable, have a little faith, and hop on?


When you make a statement about reality, it is either true or false, regardless of any mentalities or worldviews. Do you care if your statements are true?

Vanster said:

Human evolution, gravity, global climate change, and second and third order chemical reactions are all falsifiable. Simple experiments that can be duplicated and reviewed can disprove any of these things, at any time. Religion, by it's own definitions cannot.

I scrolled through Amadeus and TPK occupying pages of what they think is argument, and it's amazing there are 2 people on earth that think this is a debate. There is evidence, or there isn't. Nobody in science has ventured into that shitshow in 20 years.

If you really want to be an anti-theist like me, your homework is easy. Do not bother yourself with

God Is Not Great : How Religion Poisons Everything - Walmart.com - Walmart.com

or

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, Paperback | Barnes

Don't buy either one.

Start with the Talmud. Read it cover to cover, without coaching or help.
Second step is the Holy Bible. Cover to cover, start with Genesis in the Old Testament, end with Revelation. Proceed from there to the Koran (they say you don't understand it completely unless you read it in Arabic. .whatever, just read the translated version, it won't take long)

There is no argument I can make (other than point to lack of evidence) that can eschew religion more than a person reading it for themselves. I've yet to meet the person that has read the bible with no coaching, got the the end, looked up, and said, "yeah, this is the shit."

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the one good argument for religion is that its been a good civilizing agent throughout history. a means to control the ignorant masses who would otherwise exist as a bunch of disorganized savages. i dont think there was a single large ancient civilization that wasnt based on some belief system.

a worthy experiment would be to introduce religion to chimps to see if they can ascend to the next civilization level.

make it so jane goodall! ... or was that the gorilla lady

Vanster said:

Human evolution, gravity, global climate change, and second and third order chemical reactions are all falsifiable. Simple experiments that can be duplicated and reviewed can disprove any of these things, at any time. Religion, by it's own definitions cannot.

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These are interesting points I wish more people would discuss. It does not dawn on most people that human evolution is not testable using the scientific method. It's another great example of a supernatural truth requiring faith that people adhere to as fact without bearing a burden of proof.

There were many major points of religion that actually were entirely falsifiable during very large time windows, but nobody falsified them.

Because the claims went unfalsified for decades, the assumption of their credibility spread.

Vanster said:

I scrolled through Amadeus and TPK occupying pages of what they think is argument, and it's amazing there are 2 people on earth that think this is a debate. There is evidence, or there isn't. Nobody in science has ventured into that shitshow in 20 years.

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I believe I described the interaction as "a waste of time" and "throwing catpoop in a sandbox." And yet you accuse me of holding the interaction to some high standard of official argument.

It's no shock that you are a "master of argument" as everyone and their mother can do standing triple backflips in the privacy of their home when nobody is watching.

You are saying that nobody in science has argued about evidence in the past 20 years?

You are also suggesting that evidence is some hard-lined thing not subject to human bias or varying perspective, which is not always true.
In some cases, yes, there is agreed upon scientific creedance. However, in other cases one scientifically minded individual will say
"this is clear evidence" where another will not. Evidence can be dismissed when it is very strong, or emphasized when it is not.
The human mind often plays tricks on itself and obscures things that are plain to others, or makes things appear plain when they are not.

The over-simplification of truth that you present (there is either evidence or there is not), in my opinion, shows a lack of deep understanding
for the complexity of the reality that we live in, and the interpretation of reality that filters through the human mind.

Vanster said:

I've yet to meet the person that has read the bible with no coaching, got the the end, looked up, and said, "yeah, this is the shit."

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Then invite me out for a beer why don't you?

The bible is actually far more interesting without some lame-ass coach painting their own version of it for you over the pages.

The first person to really teach me the bible was a devout Atheist and he spun the book just as hard as preachers do.

The bible really is best consumed the same way as fish is... raw.



You are welcome in my poop sandbox too Vanster. I can assure you it is a waste of time.

Amadeus said:

Ok, we need to take a minute on this one, because by now the problem has become very obvious.

You keep paying lip service to evidence and scrutiny, but when I apply them to your beliefs, it's suddenly "victory mentality".

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That's a fair observation and I believe you have "good reason" to feel this way.

The reason I was pointing to a victory mentality is that you became fixated on the question you were asking me, and refused to let it go. Your mind drives you to push this question again and again, because you feel that if I refrain from answering it or fail to do so, it "proves" you are correct in some way, and therefore you "win" the discussion. Your strong determination to "win" is readily observable by your unwillingness to let the conversation flow in any other direction.

I am not convinced that "tell me what an experience with God would be like" is a sincere pursuit of evidence. If I'm wrong and it is evidence you seek, then read the above books that I linked. I provided those for you in case you were actually sincere, which I believe is a real possibility. As I said, read and study the evidence for yourself and tell me what you think. I'll even read the books along with you if you wish.

Also, I'm more than happy to publicly declare you the "victor" of this discussion at any time you please. This is not sarcastic, or passive aggressive, or a trap. I'm just offering in case it is something you desire.

I was more interested in causing your brain to flow in ways it is not used to. Seeing as I have asked the following question perhaps three times, you are equally unwilling to acquiesce:

If a highly intelligent being created all of the things around you that you see, what do you think a direct experience with that being would be like? I ask this out of sincere and honest curiosity. It would bring me joy to read your answer, and there is no trap behind it, but there is zero pressure to answer. If you do though, I will answer the same question in turn as you claim to have desired.

Also, you have refrained to answer whether or not you believe in the big bang, so I hope it is ok for me to go ahead and assume that you do. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I have no desire to offend.

Amadeus said:

If your friend tells you your car is on fire, but you don't have a car, is it "victory mentality" to tell him he's wrong?

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That entirely depends:

Non-victory mentality answer:
"Naw dude, I don't even have a car so no worries..."

Victory mentality answer:
"Haha motherfucker, you don't realize that you have already lost the battle and ultimately surrendered to me as I do not even have a car and the burden of proof rests upon you to show otherwise. GG thanks for playing 100th guy that has failed to even one-up me a single time."

Amadeus said:

Or should you grab the fire extinguisher and go look for your nonexistent burning car?

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I will ask you an equally relevant question:

"How do you robble dobble a flim flam?"

Amadeus said:

If someone builds an airplane with tiny little flimsy wings and asks you to fly it off a cliff, is it "victory mentality" to insist on a demonstration that the thing can fly? Or should you just be agreeable, have a little faith, and hop on?

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Why ask questions you know the answer to?

I believe it is because you are flamboyantly suggesting that I believe it is a good idea to believe in things without demonstration or evidence when I certainly do not.

You also demonstrate that you do not know what faith is. Most people that know little about religion never seem to know what faith really is, and because of that, erroneously dismiss it as "ignorantly blindly believing in things without evidence."

The topic of evidence lies elsewhere, the fine tuning of the universe, and a various other topics that are quite deep and take a lot of time to tread upon. There are lengthy books written on these various singular topics that you can freely indulge in.

Repeatedly asking a stranger to provide a detailed example of what an interaction with a divine source might be like might not be as productive to your scientific and logic based mind as simply reading the books I linked above written by qualified cosmologists and such, especially when you are waiting frothing at the mouth to dismiss any possible thing uttered towards you before it even crosses the other person's lips. However, if you answer your own question first, I will answer it as well to the best of my ability so that you can dismiss my answer as nonsensical drivel and feel that you have "defeated me" and added the "101st notch to your power belt of GG victory."

Again, if you are curious towards the actual evidence pointing towards God's existence as you suggest, I have already linked you two great books on Amazon that you can purchase.

Amadeus said:

When you make a statement about reality, it is either true or false, regardless of any mentalities or worldviews. Do you care if your statements are true?

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Yes, I care if my statements are true.

Do you believe in absolute truth?

HaPpY said:

the one good argument for religion is that its been a good civilizing agent throughout history. a means to control the ignorant masses who would otherwise exist as a bunch of disorganized savages. i dont think there was a single large ancient civilization that wasnt based on some belief system.

a worthy experiment would be to introduce religion to chimps to see if they can ascend to the next civilization level.

make it so jane goodall! ... or was that the gorilla lady

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Have I described in this thread the possibility that Mary (even if she did exist) was inseminated by an Alien?

I went to a religious school.

The most interesting story in the new testament is around Paul. Basically... Some rebel called Jesus was causing a fuss, so a Jew boss said "Paul, go investigate what these fuckers are up to." So Paul as an investigator headed to where this rebel was causing problems. On the way a blackhawk helicopter appeared in the sky and told Paul to pull he's head in. Paul got to town and was really messed up. Eventually Paul investigated and wrote back to his Jew boss. "This fucker is the real deal boss. There is incredible shit happening." Eventually Paul became one of the biggest advocates of Jesus stuff... or so they say.

I think it's an interesting story, however I very skeptical regarding religion.

Was the angel Gabriel an alien visitation?



Did Mary get an anal probe?

I'm pretty sure of one thing. Jesus, if he even existed, would not have had blonde hair blue eyes and western european features.



Also, the celibacy thing for clergy is stupid.

I'm pretty sure they're mostly fictional stories broh

Maybe Mary got porked by a wandering Scandinavian..never thought of that did you. Mother fucker would have looked like an alien back then.

By the way religion is not a black and white, truth, false deal. For the most part (such as Christianity) religion has morphed, converged, etc based on control of humans. Constantine the Great who moved Rome's capital to Constantinople was a great example of blending Paganism and Christianity. They also had meetings with all the "Christian leaders" to debate what was fact or not.

There is also parts of the bible which actually derived from other philosophies and religions. "Immaculate conception" was originally used as the conception of Buddha.

Anyway carry on these are always fun discussions.

Right on queue, this video comes along with 3 stories of how America was discovered. Which one is correct? The problem is, people go to Church and learn about Jerusalem and don't hear about these stories. This is what would be in the USA Bible. Most history books give it to Columbus, but there were others that came to America first, didn't leave anything behind. This video would be the beginning of the USA Bible.

The Pumpkin King said:

It does not dawn on most people that human evolution is not testable using the scientific method.

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this is categorically false

Now this is a good pivot.

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Well i mean...you can prove human evolution with a pen and paper and blood type tests. You could also falsify it this way. Im not sure what the issue is.

Evolution is a fact. Human evolution is no different.

The Pumpkin King said:

I was more interested in causing your brain to flow in ways it is not used to.

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Sorry to disappoint, but you have said nothing so far that I haven't already heard, and heard refuted, dozens of times.

The Pumpkin King said:

Yes, I care if my statements are true.

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So you say.

Do you recognize that science, by definition, is the collection of tools and methods that we have found to be reliable for arriving at true statements about reality?

Pagy said:

Well i mean...you can prove human evolution with a pen and paper and blood type tests. You could also falsify it this way. Im not sure what the issue is.

Evolution is a fact. Human evolution is no different.

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Dude, you could have let that play out a bit before just ending it

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