U.S. health care system: Most expensive least effective

ScooBySnaCk said:
Its because of the liberals our healthcare system is where it is. Illegal immigrants = closing hospitals and higher costs to those who are actually legal and pay for it.
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You do know that many illegal immigrants do pay taxes right? Basically everyone with a fake social security card does. I'm not saying that they pay more taxes than they use (nobody really knows if that's true or false), but it's not as simple as you seem to imply.
 
cyclozine said:
The health care system in the United States is all about profit rather than actually helping people. Only greed drives it, plain and simple and anyone who doesn't agree with this is only deluding themselves. The U.S. spends more than any other country per capita on health care. These record-setting per-capita payments fail to cover half of working-age adults, and the people who can actually afford them get access to some of the worst care among OECD nations.

It's time to face reality people.



Development: US fails to measure up on 'human index' | World news | The Guardian
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3rd Party Payer Ring-around-the-rosy Nirvana.

We could fix this real fast.

1] Patient seeks service, must pay for service.
2] Provider looks patient in eye and says, 'That will be $x'
3] Patient deals directly with his own insurance company, county welfare office, his bank account, or wherever the actual funds to pay for his/her service actually come from.
4] Provider never deals directly with patients insurance company, in fact, has no idea if patient has insurance or not, and to go along with HPPA, a new set of legislation forbids provider from even asking if patient 'has insurance' before giving him a BILL or QUOTE for services. Providers publish their fees for services, period.
5] Patients know damn well what services cost, because they directly pay the THIS IS A BILL from whatever source they have (insurance, welfare, bank account.)
6] No more of this "I can charge this person more because they have insurance, I can charge this person less and make it up by shifting cost to someone who gets THIS IS NOT A BILL and never even reads it.

This will lower health care costs FOR EVERYONE WHO PAYS FOR THEM -- individuals, businesses, insurance companies, welfare agencies. Providers will no longer be insurance claim processing mills. They will be providers of services to patients who they will bill for services. The current mill is economically 'efficient' only in destroying the marketplace.

3rd party payer ring around the rosy has BROKEN THE HEALTHCARE MARKETPLACE. It is compassionate as well as economic INSANITY. The normal checks/balances of the market ARE NOWHERE IN SIGHT.

And, in typical tribal fashion, we are toying with the concept of THROWING GASOLINE ON THIS FIRE by 'universally' embedding the concept.
 
The study said that of the industrialized countries we spend the most on our health care but see the least returns.

IMHO if we were to open up healthcare universally we would see improvements in our national health and a decrease in how much we are spending on average for healthcare.

I can't back that up at all but you can't disprove it either.
 
MolimOrion said:
Well you said it yourself. If it means better healthcare, then you have no problem infringing on rights.
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No I didn't. I said that I would be fairly certain infringing upon what you claim (but don't specify) are rights. I've seen you post before, so I won't necessarily agree with you that they are actual "inherent" rights (to the extent you mean). Hence I couldn't infringe upon the rights, because they're not rights--in my opinion of course.

But once again I never said I was certain, because you haven't actually specified any rights you refer to.
 
fartiusstinkius said:
No I didn't. I said that I would be fairly certain infringing upon what you claim (but don't specify) are rights. I've seen you post before, so I won't necessarily agree with you that they are actual "inherent" rights (to the extent you mean). Hence I couldn't infringe upon the rights, because they're not rights--in my opinion of course.

But once again I never said I was certain, because you haven't actually specified any rights you refer to.
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So depending on the right, you may or may not be ok with infringing on it ?

Do you have a list of rights you would, and wouldn't infringe on ?

Or maybe just post one right that you wouldn't infringe on, in order to have better healthcare. But with the premise that the healthcare is REALLY, REALLY good, where it would be impossible to have cancer, and you would be guaranteed to live 100 years minimum.
 
Hugo said:
The concept I displayed for you is a basic premise social democracy. Social Democrats would have you believe a fair government caters to both a market economy and basic human needs. I don't disagree with a market economy, and lean more towards the center/center-right on many issues.

However, I still think that's a fair concept. Do you agree?
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And this has exactly what to do with freedom? democracy is incompatible with freedom.

Freedom is the ability to say and do what you wish without restriction. We have rights which protect freedom and curtail it so that you may do as you wish, so long as it does not infringe on others freedom and rights unless there is an agreement between parties, but that agreement must not infringe on a non participating third party.

Governments role should be the protection of freedom and the enforcement and defense of rights. Because without these three, there can be no freedom, only chaos or tyranny.
 
fartiusstinkius said:
You do know that many illegal immigrants do pay taxes right? Basically everyone with a fake social security card does. I'm not saying that they pay more taxes than they use (nobody really knows if that's true or false), but it's not as simple as you seem to imply.
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Thats only illegals that work taxed jobs, the guys at home depot arent filling out W-2's
 
MolimOrion said:
So depending on the right, you may or may not be ok with infringing on it ?

Do you have a list of rights you would, and wouldn't infringe on ?

Or maybe just post one right that you wouldn't infringe on, in order to have better healthcare. But with the premise that the healthcare is REALLY, REALLY good, where it would be impossible to have cancer, and you would be guaranteed to live 100 years minimum.
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You have completely misunderstood me. The set of ideas that I would claim to be "rights" is probably not the same as the set of ideas you would consider "rights". Hence while from your view, I might be infringing upon a right, but from mine I wouldn't.

And so now you want me to list some idea that you consider a right, but I do not? And then explain how healthcare infringes upon that idea and why it's okay? Well I would do that, but I'm not actually clairvoyant and I do not know what ideas you hold to be rights.

So how about instead you list what you consider a right that "universal healthcare" would infringe upon (ignoring of course that there is no single "universal healthcare" system so a certain manifestation could feasibly be installed which didn't infringe upon "said" right). Then I might be able to tell you if I even consider that a right and whether or not I have a problem with that so-called right not being respected.

But don't post too quick. I've spent enough time on TW for the moment and need to get some work done. Have a fine day.
 
In Finland we have public healthcare that is funded by taxes (value added tax, income tax etc). It's enough to cover most cases, however if you want "premium" service you can still go private sector and government will cover some percent of expenses even then. Your system is just fucked up beyond any recognition :p
 
no man everyone else in the world is wrong

universal healthcare is evil and is TAKING AWAY MY HARD EARNED DOLLARS
 
Leave it to the middle class american's who are getting fucked over to stand up for the broken system. No surprise here.
 
Witch said:
Your system is just fucked up beyond any recognition :p
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It is.

The rich can afford health care by definition. They also pay via income taxes for the health care of the poor.

The middle-class can sometimes afford health care, but many cannot. They also pay via income taxes for the health care of the poor.

The poor have their health care paid for by the rich and the middle-class.

So who loses the most in our current system ?

Alot of the middle-class. It is extremely illogical that they are paying for the health care of others, while they do not have it themselves.

Filling that gap doesn't require national healthcare, and increasing the taxes on the middle-class even more. Maybe for starters, let the middle-class folks keep their money, to spend on health care for their children, rather than having to give their money to the government, to pay for health care for OTHER children.
 
A few years ago I came up with a revolutionary idea that would save us from the horrors of universal health care and the horrors of having most of the country uninsured.

It's really simple:

Tax breaks to doctors, not to the already super rich and definitely not to huge conglomerates. We have learned in the last 8 years that trickle-down economics may work in some countries, but it doesn't work here (I won't get into details, a lot of you know how I feel about the economic powers that be).

Give the tax breaks to the people who really can make a difference. Hopefully this has a negative effect on pricing (as in prices go down), and will eliminate the need for the less fortunate to have insurance. Of course, it still won't be terribly affordable (that's why we'll still need insurance companies), but it will be more affordable. Perhaps the seizure you had won't bankrupt you, you spontaneous pneumothorax what put you on someone's couch because you can't afford your rent.

Perhaps it won't work. Maybe we'll find out that doctors and hospitals are just as corrupt and greedy as big businesses. Maybe the money will just wind up in someone's pocket instead of lowering health care prices. But it's worth a shot, because these tax breaks to these huge corporations does nothing but fatten people's wallets.
 
fartiusstinkius said:
You do know that many illegal immigrants do pay taxes right? Basically everyone with a fake social security card does. I'm not saying that they pay more taxes than they use (nobody really knows if that's true or false), but it's not as simple as you seem to imply.
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Paying taxes intermittently does not equate healthcare since the hospitals are not subsidized by the US government. However in accordance with US law no hospital can turn away someone in need of healthcare regardless if they have insurance or not.

Do the math and yes its as simple as that.
 
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