News: TribalWar Vengeance Movie

experimental said:
who said we wanted to take away skill? why must it be insanely difficult to do menial tasks, like say, jetting a short distance from A->B in the platform tutorial in T1.

easy to learn, hard to master guys.
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I remember that training level heh, took me so many attempts to jet onto the different platforms and hit that tower button :)
 
experimental said:
i know the difference. i'm simply explaining that currently in TV you have more vertical thrust than in T1, which from a standing start tends to get you on a 45degree trajectory rather than a flat one -- this ballistic trajectory has hang time, rather than just going directly down.

its different. that doesnt mean its wrong.
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so in normal tribes if you stood in 1 spot and used your jets you would go straight up and then eventually fall back down to where you were standing

but in tribes vengeance if you stand in one spot and use your jets you eventually come back down slightly ahead of where you lifted off from?
 
experimental said:
hell no, i meant it. its exactly what KP says about physics too, hence i believe it is true.

its important for us to understand what makes t1 for you guys, while t1 is flawed for new players, it has a gameplay that is very precious to you. we dont want to destroy this, but we do want to make it more accessable to new players, and to improve it.

please help us improve it, keep an open mind with the changes we've made, and try to suggest how we can mesh it in with what makes t1 physics so classic for you -- our first pass at this basically involves two things.

1. high acceleration and maneuverability at 'low end' (say 50kph horizontal speed)

2. cant exceed 50kph with thrusting alone, you need to ski. newbs have fun, but are capped.

3. 50kph-100kph horizontal you are in 'intermediate zone' and you cant gain speed effectively with thrusts, your maneuverability gently starts tapering off to be more like t1.

4. 100kph+ horizontal you are in high end and physics is much like t1, maneuverability is greatly reduced (maybe even tapering off to completely ballistic with no control at 150kph? 200kph?)

these numbers are of course, just ballparks, and the physics determining this 'high end' is mostly in place but not complete. its fair to say that the physics is more biased to the low end at the moment, and not as balanced at the high end as it deserves to be.

we are aware of this, and we really want to make it right for both camps, work with us! :)
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Generally I think it would be best to come to a degree of physics that suits both players, separate configs would confuse the player and (if they changed the option to experiment/accidently) they would get thrown out of whack and wonder why things feel different - this also splits up the ballpark on what level everyone is in the playing field.

I dont quite understand (would have to see it for myself) what you mean with the way the jetting works right now... But if you can just come to a conclusion as to how it works (maybe if your stationary, which is what a newbie would be, when jetting, you just jet straight up and can then move in a free direction, if thats what I understand right now), but if your moving, you jet towards the position you are running/moving towards...

This would solve both problems because vets can target their jetpack by moving (as they do now) in directions before jetting, and newbies will see that when jetting stationary they can then move around more freely in the air when starting off, then pickup they can jet while moving later on.

Thoughts?
 
poisonspider said:
so in normal tribes if you stood in 1 spot and used your jets you would go straight up and then eventually fall back down to where you were standing

but in tribes vengeance if you stand in one spot and use your jets you eventually come back down slightly ahead of where you lifted off from?
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no, i'm talking about holding forward + thrust, not holding thrust alone. of course thrust alone is still vertical.
 
Zoolooman said:
Here is the key to your problem. It is hidden in these words.

You see, despite all the braggadocio, veterans actually spend the vast majority of their combat time in these low speed scenarios. Skiing isn't really a combat state, but is more a mobility effect used to enter or escape combat at high speed. The amount of combat that actually takes place in mid-motion is relegated mostly to flag-play.

Effectively, any movement you make easier for the newbies, you make incredibly easy for the veterans to abuse beyond all belief.

This "tighter feel" in the air is an example of what I'm talking about. When a veteran sees this, they don't see a tool to help the newbies. They see a tool that's going to overempower the veterans to the point of making many of the historic weapons much less useful. They see a sudden decline in the player's capability to fail at doing something. In other words, Tribes skill exists across the entire spectrum, from basic movement to high speed movement, and in fact, most of that skill rests in the low end combat. To simplify this low end combat simplifies the vast majority of combat to be found in the game.

Example: a player in a fight can jump upwards. But where he jumps, and how he jumps, and how the enemy reacts to that movement, are all based on subtle use of the terrain; subtlety, I might add, that only works when the players' every single motions are important. When you give a player more lateral movement, he no longer has to worry about such small subtleties. Rather, he can figuratively "bulldoze" over the subtleties with a strong movement mechanic.

In other words, you can't easily simplify the low end mechanics, because the low velocity mechanics are the key mechanics for the vast majority of Tribes players. They fight in close duels, utilizing those low end mechanics very carefully, finding weaknesses in the enemy movement. When you strengthen these movement mechanics, you effectively remove the weaknesses upon which players rely to kill each other with any expediency. To be frank, Tribes weapons suck (by design). The disc launcher is slow (even in T2 classic, where it's relatively speedy), the chaingun's aim is difficult, and players are already moving in the sky. Without the weaknesses (quick peaking of the arc, predictable motions thanks to low air control, hitting and being stuck to the ground for a second as you impact badly), it becomes incredibly difficult to play the game with any subtlety.

While the new players will pick up these physics in the short term, in the long run, as they get better, the predictability of the players, and the use of the weapons, will get worse. In effect, jump-jetting will seem more like controlled flight rather than extended jumping, and veterans will see the skillful subtleties inherent to difficult control being eliminated.

That's my opinion on the subject. You can make low end movement somewhat easier, but you can't make it *that* much easier, or the players will simply be able to abuse the mechanics until the gameplay foundations--predictability and the weaknesses of movement--are partially irrelevant.

Also, I'd like to note again, just for the sake of posterity, that much of this is my opinion on Tribes movement theory, rather than experience with the effects of changes in T:V physics. I can't say what's *really* wrong until I can put my hands on the actual movement and give it a good testing. For all I know, the players in T:V are so motile that one can react to another quite easily, and the predictability issue isn't so worrying. Nevertheless, I feel that's a fine line, and will require a lot of tuning. If player's aren't "movement-weak" at some point, then the chances of them being shot by anything except the chaingun or sniper rifle suddenly decreases, possibly too far. In other words, I feel that players need to spend time feeling they have lost control, as they do in T1 or T2. The only reason veterans don't feel out of control when they have no control, is because they have the experience to make sure they fall correctly, rather than incorrectly, when they come tumbling out of the sky.
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all good points, again in line with KP's feelings, and not addressed with the ramping down of maneuverability with horizontal speed.

so veteran dueling conflicts with what makes new players excited about the game, or does it? we'll need to get veterans to play. its definately different to t1, but is it a problem? KP thinks it is, i'm not convinced - but we'll be looking at this issue during beta.

ok, i've said all i need to say, i'm going back to work. i have an alpha build to ship :)
 
experimental said:
all good points, again in line with KP's feelings, and not addressed with the ramping down of maneuverability with horizontal speed.

so veteran dueling conflicts with what makes new players excited about the game, or does it? we'll need to get veterans to play. its definately different to t1, but is it a problem? KP thinks it is, i'm not convinced - but we'll be looking at this issue during beta.

ok, i've said all i need to say, i'm going back to work. i have an alpha build to ship :)
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You guys at Irrational fudgeing rock.

If you get some managerical guy from Sierra or whatever the hell chewing you out for posting this frankly and honestly, tell him that I, mr_luc, cordially invite him to lick my scrotal folds.
 
When did they decide to take out jetpack smoke in favour of team coloured streamers?

I'm not sold on this game in the first place but jesus the coloured trails from jetpacks looks TERRIBLE. I would think a small inital puff of smoke and a tiny stream of smoke when "lifting off" from the ground would look much nicer.
Also make it only happen when your leaving the ground, so when airborne there is no smoke/streamer.

Also if you put in team coloured streamers in so newbs can ident the enemy faster, then you have some seriously pathetic brainstorming going on. Sorry.
 
Erect Tit said:
When did they decide to take out jetpack smoke in favour of team coloured streamers?
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It's pre-Alpha and LOTS of things can change before release. I know KP mentioned the artwork and sounds are getting atleast a few more passes. It's bound to change. :)
 
about this feature that when you hit apex, you dont imediatly fall down....i think this is what is causing the soopy feel/look. it makes it appear that you arent being pulled down, whch basically = T2 during vertical movements. why even have this? part of the skill in t1 was being able to plan you fall to hit steep ski route and throw off the defense...if you are gliding, or at least falling less dramatcally, it takes away a lot of the "speed" )whether it be real or percieved, it still affects the movement)
 
Erect Tit said:
When did they decide to take out jetpack smoke in favour of team coloured streamers?

I'm not sold on this game in the first place but jesus the coloured trails from jetpacks looks TERRIBLE. I would think a small inital puff of smoke and a tiny stream of smoke when "lifting off" from the ground would look much nicer.
Also make it only happen when your leaving the ground, so when airborne there is no smoke/streamer.

Also if you put in team coloured streamers in so newbs can ident the enemy faster, then you have some seriously pathetic brainstorming going on. Sorry.
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the colors are flag trails, aka, it shows where the flag is. people w/o the flag dont have colored trails
 
Just to counter some of the complaints about disc speed.. I'm quite pleased with it. I have always been a fan of the slightly slower Tribes disc. I don't think it should be increased much, if at all. Increased speed = increased ease of use, and the disc should always be a skill weapon.
 
xsMaster said:
the colors are flag trails, aka, it shows where the flag is. people w/o the flag dont have colored trails
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the one phoenix medium did. It jetted up and side to side a bit and there were 2 solid yellow trails following it.

This is what I mean
JetTrails.JPG
 
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axeofblood said:
T1 had to compete with Half life,quake and several other FPS shooters. And for a genere that added the third element of movement T1 was rather successful. Go ahead and make another T2 then see if they even make it to break even with games like doom3 half-life2 on the shelf.
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They aren't trying to make another T2, axeofblood. Neither are they trying to make another T1. They are trying to make T:V, the next step in Tribes. There is a big difference between giving new players training wheels, and simply making the game more accessible. The way Tribes (the original, that is) ended up being would be comparable to sending someone who is just playing hockey for the first time into a professional game. In other words, the learning curve was so steep that the majority of people who tried it would likely throw up their hands in frustration and find something more accessible. Accessibility is the key. A new player needs to be able to do the most mundane things. This is not the case in the original. A new player would struggle to even get out of their base, or to select their inventory. How can you possibly consider that a good thing?
 
Tycho said:
I just watched the video and all I can say is...the only question I asked when T:V was announced was if there would be a flag indicator included in the game...I was told there were no plans to include one...well obviously plans do have the tendancy to change, but I had hoped they wouldn't on this occasion.

O.K., the flag finder DOES allow everyone to always know where their objective is, but that is also the problem. T2 became a back-cap only game. There was no way that you could get away from even a semi organized and competent defense unless you were going directly away from them. Even then, people just aimed at the flying flag on their screen w/ the laser rifle. It took one of the most interesting aspects of the game of Tribes (not t1 or t2, but tribes in general, just so someone can't say "Well this isn't T*"): the round-about route.

That is, because everyone knew where their flag was 99.9% of the time by just turning in a circle the option of making a route that tricked the defense was removed. An example, Red Death in T1 playing Snow Blind where someone (Torment, pr0nigy maybe, I dunno) used a route that went out behind the base and then across the middle of the map. The emphasis was on the defense being able to stay close enough to the person with their flag, or else their chances of retrieving were greatly reduced. This was a case of two very good teams playing eachother and showcased T1's capacity to be creative.

A look at t2, now. We'll look at classic, since the speeds and gameplay will hopefully be more in kind with T:V than t2 base was. We will also ignore the team size difference, as it has little bearing on the result (other than the number of cg's aimed at the carrier). In nearly any level, and certainly at the top level, of t2 comp. capping was reduced to high speed grabs from the back 160 degrees (roughly). Because a light d could see the exact location of their flag just by looking for the indicator, it made intercepting a carrier infinitely easier than in T1. Say someone grabbed from the front of a flag stand: first of all, as soon as the defense hears the flag grab sound those with a laser rifle will switch to it while beginning to track their flag. Instead of being forced to choose their target, they look for the big flying flag and shoot at it, or move into a position to shoot. Let's say that is one or two of the LD, and they both miss. The rest will immediately track the flag icon and disk jump to intercept. The carrier's ability to out smart the ld with a creative route is removed, because the carrier can be tracked without being in visual range. So now the carrier is forced to accept the reality of the situation and look for the fastest way away from the defense, becasue the creative way has been removed. That said, all that is left is the high speed back cap, and that is one of the things that made t2 less fun for me. Anyway, that's my opinion, and I hope I backed it up enough for colossus to deem it valid :shrug:
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Totally agree. T2's flag icon really makes things too easy for chasers and also makes grabbing the flag in the field far easier.

This deserves its own thread.
 
i remember reading they were going to have the flag indicator if you had a friendly with in the a certain distance from the flag carrier. i think

dont know if i like that, either make it line of sight or drop it completely.
 
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