Excessive or Neccesary Force? You decide

Yankee said:
Fleeing a police officer is not a capital offense

Resisting Arrest is not a capital offense

Possesion of Weapons and Drugs are not capital offenses

Using poor judgement is not a capital offense.

Assault on a police officer is not a capital offense.
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I agree.

But cops are trained to use force when they feel their life, or another, is in serious danger. The type of force used has to do with the situaiton (ie: baton, punch/kick, gun, mace, etc).

None of those are capital offensees, but all of them can easily make a cop feel they are in serious danger, or someone else is.

and if you're so dumb as to act like that, i have no sympathy for you.
 
Yankee said:
I feel there is a great disparity between "perceived threat" and "really fucking dead".
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so where do you draw the line? and when its your job to walk the line, how do you really think you would react?

a month or so ago there was a guy in okland that wound up killing what, 5 or 6 cops? the situation started out exactly like this. a guy refused to stop when the cops told him to.


the bottom line is you do what cops say (within reason). and stopping when multiple cop cars swarm you is WELL within reason.

don't sit here and armchair quarterback these guys - there were bullets and drugs in the car. they obviously weren't just harassing some innocent person, and how could they have known there weren't four guys with guns in the car? everything else they were told about the situation was right... on top of that he didn't stop, and attempted to flea from all the cops (in the process driving directly towards an officer)

I'm not saying there aren't corrupt cops, or that cops never over step their bounds - I think you'd be hard pressed to find a cop that thinks that.

But in the grand scheme of police brutality, this is very far down the list. (assuming the higher onthe list you are, the more brutal an act is)
 
Yankee said:
Fleeing a police officer is not a capital offense

Resisting Arrest is not a capital offense

Possesion of Weapons and Drugs are not capital offenses

Using poor judgement is not a capital offense.

Assault on a police officer is not a capital offense.

Some County Mountie playing Judge Dredd should be.
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Maybe not, but assaulting a police officer with a 4000 lb SUV is certainly a death sentence. ;)
 
I usually side against cops in these situations, but based on this video I can see how he ended up dead. The cop in back (angle 2 in the vid) probably thought his fellow officer was about to be turned into mulch by the SUV.

That being said, the real reason this guy is dead is the police took a confidential informant's word as infallible evidence. If they hadn't been "tipped off" that there were 4 heavily armed suspects inside the SUV, they probably wouldn't have gone out guns blazing.
 
Tappy said:
I usually side against cops in these situations, but based on this video I can see how he ended up dead. The cop in back (angle 2 in the vid) probably thought his fellow officer was about to be turned into mulch by the SUV.

That being said, the real reason this guy is dead is the police took a confidential informant's word as infallible evidence. If they hadn't been "tipped off" that there were 4 heavily armed suspects inside the SUV, they probably wouldn't have gone out guns blazing.
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you haven't heard of the stories of cops shooting cars because the driver was headed at them without any sign of stopping?

a year or so there was a kid that was killed for walking out on a bill at ihop. because he wouldn't stop his car, and was headed right at the cop.

i'm prety sure them shooting the driver (in the case the OP mentioned) had more to do with the vehicle not stopping, and less to do with what the CI told them.
 
My understanding is that the Oakland cops were ambushed.

I don't have a problem with the concept of a policeman protecting himself from a perceived threat. I feel the escalation to deadly force is too abrupt. I also would say that many small town and rural police forces are inadequately trained, and are staffed with personnel not qualified to make life or death decisions on how they "feel".
 
Yankee said:
My understanding is that the Oakland cops were ambushed.
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they were. after he killed a cop (two?) while being stopped, and fled to his house.

(are you thinking about the guy that killed cops after his mother called them because he wouldn't pay rent or something? this is a different story, maybe the one i'm refering to didn't happen in oakland, but i thought it did...and it was about the same time (give or take a week?)

Yankee said:
I don't have a problem with the concept of a policeman protecting himself from a perceived threat. I feel the escalation to deadly force is too abrupt.
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I agree, but i think its necesarry. too many people have guns or are wacked out on too many (STRONG) drugs. And again, there is a line, i just don't think this is anywhere near crossing that line.

I think they shot too many times given their surroundings, but thats my personal opinion - i'm obviously not a trained cop.


Yankee said:
I also would say that many small town and rural police forces are inadequately trained, and are staffed with personnel not qualified to make life or death decisions on how they "feel".
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I 100% agree. I also think that when those situations are presented (after the fact, for judgement purposes) it is normally pretty clear when that is what is going on.


And in the end, you should listen to the cops. You gain nothing but making them feel threatened. This is coming from someone who has been arrested a few times... (unfortunately)
 
Yankee said:
Is this the part where I start insulting you?
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if your name was wowbagger, insidious, naptown, automatic jack, juggernaut, jason kotz, or a bunch of other names then I would say yes, and if anything you're a tad late on it.


but your name is yankee, so no, i think this is the part where you either agree with me, or we both agree to disagree. (or I admit I don't understnad your view...)
 
Detox.enD said:
i question the amount of shots too - not out excesive vs neccesary, but out of stupidity.

as my dad trained me, you're supose to consider evertyhing between you and the target, the target, and anything behind the target. cops are trained that way (as are most people with any decent gun training). so i would say its pretty stupid to fire that many shots when you are in a neighborhood, especially at a moving target, while you yourself are moving.

however... see my post above...
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try remembering the 4 rules when you're thinking "OHFUCKOHFUCKOHFUCKIMGONNADIEHESGONNAKILLMEDEADOHFUCKOHFUCK"

17 shots from a 9mm is like 3 seconds of solid firing, all while trying not to shit your pants

it's only sketchy when they reload and keep shooting
 
I'd put money on the 'informant' being contacted shortly after the black SUV was purchased using drug money, which prompted the whole investigation to begin with.

That doesn't make shooting the guy fair or just, but it does explain why they trusted the narc they found.
 
For one thing the cops should not have pulled that stupid shit in a neighborhood.
Second the fucking dumbshit should have not tried to run...you are surrounded!!

But all info is not known and this person could have been a local drug lord/thug.

So yeah 30 rounds should have been fired...no mercy.

Oh and i hope cops die as well.
 
The real tragedy is that the SUV was only 2 days old. Sadly, all that effort put into the vehicle by the auto workers and the money spent to purchase the vehicle are wasted because you know that shit is going on carfax and dropping the vehicle's value. Plus, the poor owner will have to continue making full payments on the devalued car.

Let's have a moment of silence for the SUV.

.....

Amen.
 
so, the only legitimate reason to shoot would be if an officer feared he was going to be hit. if the one in front of the SUV feared for his life and shot the driver dead, the vehicle is going to keep going the direction it was going, making it more likely he gets hit since he's assuming his in the path of the vehicle.

if the officer in the rear thought his partner was going to be hit and shoots the driver the same thing happens. excessive and stupid.
 
Musashi said:
The real tragedy is that the SUV was only 2 days old. Sadly, all that effort put into the vehicle by the auto workers and the money spent to purchase the vehicle are wasted because you know that shit is going on carfax and dropping the vehicle's value. Plus, the poor owner will have to continue making full payments on the devalued car.

Let's have a moment of silence for the SUV.

.....

Amen.
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Its a drug bucket, it will be seized by the police department and auctioned for a fraction of its original value.
 
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