Crom's T:V Impressions from GDC

R. Fruit,

Think about it (the game design) this way. Tribes 2 mapped just about every key on the keyboard. Even you might admit that is a lot to remember. That's an indication of how overly complex the game was.

One of our goals was to adjust that complexity down to less than half the keyboard but remove as little as possible in doing that.

Now you're going to have to make a leap of faith when I tell you that this is important. That it doesn't matter to hard core players like you, but it does matter to average players. Don't argue that, just accept it for this discussion. If you argue that one point I'll have the pope ban you from life. So, just for this discussion you're going to agree that less complexity is a good thing, particularly when you can achieve it without feature loss.

So we have to cut back a bit, and our unit of measure is going to be the keyboard. That means we have to get keyboard usage down. How do you do that? You start by simplifying what you can. You make similar systems share functionality. You adjust anything mildly redundant. When you've done all that you cut anything you think sucks. Finally, you start looking for features which aren't needed.

When you find something that you think might not be needed, a feature you might want to cut, and it's using a key, that just adds a bit more weight to the cut it decision. It's not enough to make the decision alone (that's important) but it helps.

Thus the repair pack has lost its life, at least for now.
 
I think the repair kit is worthwhile redundancy. It's a little detail that adds a smidgeon of complexity to gameplay. It awards instant kills with a bit of extra health for the killer.

The closest in gameplay effect would be dropping a repair patch if you get instakilled (from 95% - 100% to 0% in less than one second), but that just seems arbitrary and stupid. The repair kit does this in a sensible fashion.

The repair kit was just a nicety. We could carry them, toss them to friends and pick them up from people who got totally owned.

A nicety that I think gives the gameplay an outside polish and shine. You may consider it redundant, but I consider it a good redundancy; it adds a small nuance to gameplay. I won't claim it was a skilled or particularly impressive nuance, but it was (especially in Arena) a game changing nuance and one I particularly enjoyed.

I ask that you don't discount the inclusion of the repair kit. I really think people will enjoy using it, both in SP and MP. I think *everyone* will enjoy using it. It gives newbies a sense of empowerment when they finally hit the health key. Now they are partially in control of their own life. Damage isn't quite permanent when you have a repair kit in tow.
 
Zoolooman said:
I think the repair kit is worthwhile redundancy. It's a little detail that adds a smidgeon of complexity to gameplay. It awards instant kills with a bit of extra health for the killer.
Click to expand...

Instant kills have no place in a FPS in my opinion, the exception being the mortar. Therefore no reward should be given. (how often to you pick up a health kit off a mortared light?)
 
Fool said:
What makes Tribes unique?

Me. Just me. I don't play other First Person Shooters, so therefore I must be what is good about Tribes. Therefore as long as I play T:V, it will be good (and consequently why T2 sucked).
Click to expand...

My presence made up for your absence.
 
RegisteredFruit said:
I believe it adds an extra fun element to the game. Of course mid airing and skiing are more fun, but that doesn't mean they have to remove the little fun parts for no reason. Looks like we disagree here, so there's no basis for discussion any more unless you want to fight... actually I do:

THE REPAIR KIT IS FUN, YOU ARE WRONG! BRING IT jerk!
Click to expand...

Well if mid airing and skiing is more fun, then wouldn't T:V be more fun if the less fun stuff like the health kit was all taken out so that the game was filled with more of the really fun stuff like mid-airing and skiing? You say there is no reason for this, I say that making the game more fun is a great reason.

IT DOES look like we disagree here. If articulating my point makes me a jerk then fine, I am. My intention was not to make you angry, but to sway you towards my opinion using examples, points, and reasons. You keep saying the repair kit is so much fun, I'm just waiting to hear how is all. Believe it or not, I WANT to hear your reasons for this, you just won't give me any. I am actually very very curious as to why you think putting more focus on the health kit or targetting laser aspect of the game rather then the skiing and shooting will make the game more fun. I am more then willing to listen. Hook me up with the RegisteredFruit Info... I'm waiting...
 
vawlk said:
Using more than 1 RK per spawn. Sure if you only could use 1 per spawn then putting it in the health bar is fine, but since I tend to scavenge 4-5 per spawn, its a much bigger deal.

Personally I think not having RK will slow down the game a smidge. I won't go balls out attacking a base if I know there is no way for me to regen. I will choose my targets selectively and try to draw them away from the base defenses.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, I do enjoy scavenging myself, that's why I suggested the following (it was in the same post as the one you quoted me on -- not sure if you just skipped over this part);
Apotheosis said:
...

So the problem remains; how can we make make scavenging for health possible without having the "complications" of the Repair Kit? I think it may have been suggested before, but how about having each person drop a Repair Patch as they are killed? I feel that the health restored by the Repair Patch should be a relatively small amount, since *every player* will drop one when killed. I was thinking along the lines of having it restore about 1/4 to 1/2 as much health as you would think the Repair Kit would restore.

One reason I would like to see the Repair Patch dropping is for gametypes such as Arena, where your one life is very valuable. Some maps in T1 Arena (such as AUTH) already have Repair Kits and Repair Patches lying around on the map (at their respective spawn points), but there are also many maps that have nothing like this, and therefore looking for dead bodies is even more important.

...
Click to expand...

Comments?
 
Thrax Panda said:
R. Fruit,

Think about it (the game design) this way. Tribes 2 mapped just about every key on the keyboard. Even you might admit that is a lot to remember. That's an indication of how overly complex the game was.

One of our goals was to adjust that complexity down to less than half the keyboard but remove as little as possible in doing that.

Now you're going to have to make a leap of faith when I tell you that this is important. That it doesn't matter to hard core players like you, but it does matter to average players. Don't argue that, just accept it for this discussion. If you argue that one point I'll have the pope ban you from life. So, just for this discussion you're going to agree that less complexity is a good thing, particularly when you can achieve it without feature loss.

So we have to cut back a bit, and our unit of measure is going to be the keyboard. That means we have to get keyboard usage down. How do you do that? You start by simplifying what you can. You make similar systems share functionality. You adjust anything mildly redundant. When you've done all that you cut anything you think sucks. Finally, you start looking for features which aren't needed.

When you find something that you think might not be needed, a feature you might want to cut, and it's using a key, that just adds a bit more weight to the cut it decision. It's not enough to make the decision alone (that's important) but it helps.

Thus the repair pack has lost its life, at least for now.
Click to expand...


Thrax,

While I agree that simplifying the keyboard to an extent isn't a bad thing there is a limit to how far you should go. Simple is not always good. In fact simple if flat out bad many times imho. Most fps junkies want their PC shooter to be a fun and complex system. Complex systems have the ability to grow and evolve beyond what even the developers can come up with typically. I'm not saying T:V isn't complex mind you, I'm just going to that extreme as an example. Hope you take my meaning.

Being complex isn't a bad thing at all so long as its approached the right way. There is going to be a single player game, presumably an in game tutorial and a manual right? Combine that with an online community and you have a lot of places where skills can be picked up on. I honestly and truely cannot believe or understand the argument of "its counter intuative" or "n00bs won't get it" or however else you all are explaining it right now.

So far there are a lot of good things I like about the game, some I don't like so much (mine disking) but will agree that it won't hurt too badly and some I flat out think are ridiculous like the TL and RK. I won't go into the TL thing because it seems you guys are set in stone on that one so why bother. The removing of the RK is not a good thing imho. Its a small item to include and makes a huge difference in the first two games. But now you're saying for the sake of keeping the keyboard mappings down to the minimum you're axing it? Sounds like an extreme measure for something that is so wildly used. I like the ability to use an epack and have the kit there just as a small backup. I don't want to be forced to carry a repair pack just for a minor bit of healing I might need in the field.

Sorry man, thumbs down on removing it. :(
 
Rep kit discussion

I definately agree simplifying the keyboard is paramount... for new and old players alike

that said.. this changes the gameplay dynamic in a BIG way for both the offense and the defense..

health kits or something resembling them seem to be in most other games... to lose them would suck for new and old players equally for different reasons...

think about a new player coming to the game.. they get pumbled by discs upon joining a server.. and have no back up but to respawn.. that'd get old...

WTIH a repkit, however, they could learn how to use it during single player missions.. then have something (albeit small) on their side..

as far as vets go.. if there is NO rep kit... I personally will have to assign nothing to the "g" key (my rep kit key) because I will continue to push it once I take damage for the entire time I play the game... thusly making the keyboard MORE complicated.. and less useful.... I've been mashing the rep kit key for five someodd years and now it "might" not even be there
 
Removing the repair kit ... wow.

It's no wonder we had to dig for anything about the game since you guys started making it a point to post updates here. As the game progresses, you give us the pros and the cool stuff about the game but then every so often you let out these little negatives that induce knee-jerk reactions. This isn't a game that brings tribes back to it's roots, it's a game being stripped for whatever reason.

I'm not understanding the logic. I haven't read this whole discussion. (Do I need too?)

I'm getting disapointed. I'll read this conversation to see what point you guys is trying to make for it but this is sounding like a console game translated for PC and like you got some supposedly fabulous ideas from Tribes Aerial Assault to make ways to dumb down the game for the masses or something. Removing the repair kit for the sake to many keys is complete BS!! And any reason to do it has got to be a dumb one.

You all are ready to put it back too so that means you must be wary of the repercussions.

I think it's sucks and it's logic is stupidly flawed.
 
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ZOD said:
Well I read up to page 14 and have come to this conclusion. People who are arguing against change are afraid of having that "Just played Tribes for this first time" feeling we had so many years ago. I want that feeling back! Putting the same shazbot in the game that's been in the last two does not get that feeling back. I want new, I want fresh, I want to go "WTF was that!?!?!" the first week of playing.

Just because your old tired play style will be gone and you have to make up your own NEW FRESH STYLE doesn't make the game suck. Think back to the first days of Tribes and how freakin amazing and inspiring it all was. Don't you want that back again? I want to learn new shazbot, not kick the crap out of newbies for another 2 years just because I've been doing the same old tired shazbot for the last I can't even remember how long.
Click to expand...

After first hearing about reduced # of weapons, TL, and now repair kit, I was feeling like "WTF!?!?!?!". Why the fudge are they taking out some of the cool shazbot. But after sleeping on it for two days, ZOD's post is exactly what I want.
 
What? The word "not" is not a conjunctive. You'd be comma splicing if you put a comma after "not."

To be pedantically accurate the phrase would be written, "The correct term is you're not your."
 
Mooley said:
Removing the repair kit ... wow.

It's no wonder we had to dig for anything about the game since you guys started making it a point to post updates here. As the game progresses, you give us the pros and the cool stuff about the game but then every so often you let out these little negatives that enduce knee-jerk reactions. This isn't a game that brings tribes back to it's roots, it's a game being stripped for whatever reason.

I'm not understanding the logic. I haven't read this whole discussion. (Do I need too?)

I'm getting disapointed. I'll read this conversation to see what point you guys is trying to make for it but this is sounding like a console game translated for PC and like you got some supposedly fabulous ideas from Tribes Aerial Assault to make ways to dumb down the game for the masses or something. Removing the repair kit for the sake to many keys is complete BS!! And any reason to do it has got to be a dumb one.

You all are ready to put it back too so that means you must be wary of the repercussions.

I think it's sucks and it's logic is stupidly flawed.
Click to expand...

Thank you for yet another strikingly generic post. I love reading over and over again that people think it is illogical and stupid without explaining why.

I think you are right however, simplifying the keys is a terrible idea. I will back this up and suggest that we make the keys as complex as we are able to in order to make this game more fun. From here on, let's have it so that in order to shoot one must insert the key commands "Up, Down, Up, Down, a, b, a, b, select, start." In order to active one's jump jets, we should have to type "SuperKalaFrajalisticExpeealaHolyCrapThisIsComplicatedAdocious". Of course you would type this in AFTER hitting the jump button and in the 2 second window before your body returns to the ground. More key bindings please... That is all.
 
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