Bye Bye Tony Blair

[cartman]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3796075.stm

Bad night at the polls for Labour
The European counts will not happen until Sunday

Labour is suffering heavy losses in local elections in England and Wales, with several councils changing hands.

Tony Blair said Britain's role in the invasion had cast a "shadow" over the poll.

The elections are the biggest test of voter opinion before the next general election but the final picture will not be clear until the European results appear on Sunday night.

 

[SuperTrap]

it's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine

 

[Molly Hatchet]

On the basis of voting in 300 key wards the BBC is projecting an equivalent national vote for the parties of Tories 38%, Lib Dems 30% and Labour 26%.

OH MAN, LOCAL ELECTIONS DO NOT FAVOR BLAIR WHATEVER SHALL WE DO?

It's not Iraq that is dragging down his support. Blair is much more pro-EU than the majority of the populace; I would venture a strongly supported guess that the EU is a hell of a lot more prominent in the eyes of voters than Iraq.

 

[houston]

.

 

[Kurayami]

On the basis of voting in 300 key wards the BBC is projecting an equivalent national vote for the parties of Tories 38%, Lib Dems 30% and Labour 26%.

OH MAN, LOCAL ELECTIONS DO NOT FAVOR BLAIR WHATEVER SHALL WE DO?

It's not Iraq that is dragging down his support. Blair is much more pro-EU than the majority of the populace; I would venture a strongly supported guess that the EU is a hell of a lot more prominent in the eyes of voters than Iraq.

Cartman hates the US, so of course he's going to try to spin the story to make it seem as if the Hitler oil war is to blame.

 

[inkja]

I forsee Blair serving another term

I hope to god not. One thing is for sure, I won't be voting for Labour and only one of my friends will be.

 

[inkja]

Cartman hates the US, so of course he's going to try to spin the story to make it seem as if the Hitler oil war is to blame.

It is one of the large factors contributing to Labour's, and in particular Blair's, lack of popularity at the moment. However I'm sure a lot of people are just sick of Labour's empty promises and other such bullshit.

 

[cartman]

Cartman hates the US, so of course he's going to try to spin the story to make it seem as if the Hitler oil war is to blame.

Tony Blair said Britain's role in the invasion had cast a "shadow" over the poll.

Aparently Blair is spinning in that direction just fine all on his own...

I didnt add any commentary mind you, just quoting... I tend to think people can and should draw their own conclusions...

 

[Molly Hatchet]

I forsee Blair serving another term

I do not. The Conservative coalition which is currently the "opposition" is very organized now. Blair would have been vulnerable LAST election had not the opposition been divided and grossly mismanaged. Now they have capable leaders and are attacking the Labour party well.

And to be honest, most of it has jack shit to do with military foreign policy. The Conservatives are tough on terrorism, but low on the European Union. To be honest, I FAVOR the Conservatives over the Labour despite Blair being a close ally. Just look at folks like Thatcher; a staunch Conservative and yet did she not stand closely with the US and our foreign policy against the USSR even when the rest of the Western world said Reagan took too hard of a line?

The Conservatives opposed action in Iraq on two counts. One, they felt like we used a bad justification. I suspect if we used the idea that Iraq violated a treaty with NATO and the UN (of which the UK plays prominent roles) they would have given a grudging OK. Second, the war was divisive.. polls pre-war gave support at 50-50. Now of course, more oppose the war, but not like we see in Italy, Germany or France. If the Conservatives opposed the war, they could pick up support from dissident Labour members. It was a political move.

So before you guys spout off reasons or whatever that Blair may not be in power shortly, learn some European politics please. btw, Blair will NOT serve another term and the Labour party will be defeated; but it will not be a blow against terrorism like the Spanish elections, and it will have fuck all to do with Iraq.

 

[Molly Hatchet]

It is one of the large factors contributing to Labour's, and in particular Blair's, lack of popularity at the moment. However I'm sure a lot of people are just sick of Labour's empty promises and other such bullshit.

I know you are British man, but admit that Iraq is not as huge as oh say, Labour support from the end of the pound, increasing control by the EU over UK actions; I mean just look at the support gained by the UKIP in the latest election! Not a huge amount, but more than before. I daresay that the Brits are getting tired of the EU's bullshit as well.

If you saw sweeping gains by the Liberal Dems in which they took control over huge parts of the country (this did not happen though there were some gains) then I would say this is an anti-war reaction.

But many Conservatives actually supported the war at first! Some of course did not, for political and personal reasons that I already stated, but the party line.. AT FIRST MIND YOU.. was in support of the action.

 

[inkja]

I do not. The Conservative coalition which is currently the "opposition" is very organized now. Blair would have been vulnerable LAST election had not the opposition been divided and grossly mismanaged. Now they have capable leaders and are attacking the Labour party well.

And to be honest, most of it has jack shit to do with military foreign policy. The Conservatives are tough on terrorism, but low on the European Union. To be honest, I FAVOR the Conservatives over the Labour despite Blair being a close ally. Just look at folks like Thatcher; a staunch Conservative and yet did she not stand closely with the US and our foreign policy against the USSR even when the rest of the Western world said Reagan took too hard of a line?

The Conservatives opposed action in Iraq on two counts. One, they felt like we used a bad justification. I suspect if we used the idea that Iraq violated a treaty with NATO and the UN (of which the UK plays prominent roles) they would have given a grudging OK. Second, the war was divisive.. polls pre-war gave support at 50-50. Now of course, more oppose the war, but not like we see in Italy, Germany or France. If the Conservatives opposed the war, they could pick up support from dissident Labour members. It was a political move.

So before you guys spout off reasons or whatever that Blair may not be in power shortly, learn some European politics please. btw, Blair will NOT serve another term and the Labour party will be defeated; but it will not be a blow against terrorism like the Spanish elections, and it will have fuck all to do with Iraq.

Don't dare compare the Conservatives now with Thatcher's new right regime please

 

[Molly Hatchet]

Don't dare compare the Conservatives now with Thatcher's new right regime please

Well they are certainly not emulating her right now; much to my chagrin. She was y'alls greatest leader since Churchill. Great foreign policy, very good economic work and anti-welfare state! Turned the fate of the country right around like Reagan did here in the States.

 

[inkja]

I know you are British man, but admit that Iraq is not as huge as oh say, Labour support from the end of the pound, increasing control by the EU over UK actions; I mean just look at the support gained by the UKIP in the latest election! Not a huge amount, but more than before. I daresay that the Brits are getting tired of the EU's bullshit as well.

Although you are correct over the implications of the EU, you underestimate how much people are pissed off at the government's rash decision to support military action in Iraq. Many would have preferred to see tangible evidence before stepping into something that is very much going to be a problem for the future. Personally I see no problem with going into Iraq to destroy the regime, but that wasn't projected as the goal at first. Also Tony Blair put his reputation on the line by saying he was 100% sure that WMD stockpiles existed in Iraq, which looks less and less likely to be true.

 

[inkja]

Well they are certainly not emulating her right now; much to my chagrin. She was y'alls greatest leader since Churchill. Great foreign policy, very good economic work and anti-welfare state! Turned the fate of the country right around like Reagan did here in the States.

She might have been the greatest leader in terms of the strength of her personality, but a lot of her policies were based on a flawed ideology and ruined local economies and almost destroyed many important aspects of education. Being a resident of Northern England, Thatcher is comparitable with Hitler because she destroyed the job market and ruined local industries.

 

[Molly Hatchet]

Although you are correct over the implications of the EU, you underestimate how much people are pissed off at the government's rash decision to support military action in Iraq. Many would have preferred to see tangible evidence before stepping into something that is very much going to be a problem for the future. Personally I see no problem with going into Iraq to destroy the regime, but that wasn't projected as the goal at first. Also Tony Blair put his reputation on the line by saying he was 100% sure that WMD stockpiles existed in Iraq, which looks less and less likely to be true.

Exactly what I was saying. It was a bad predication. If the reasoning for war was changed, then I'm damn sure the people and all parties besides the LibDems would have supported the effort.

I've always felt Bush and Blair went for the "home run" instead of just hitting the double to drive in the runs to win permanent support. Or if you prefer the soccer analogy, they decided to be the hat trick heroes instead of crossing the ball into the box to get the header for the golden goal.

 

[Kurayami]

Five lies about Britain in Europe

20-05-2004


In May 1970 the Labour government under Harold Wilson declared that it intended to begin negotiations for the UK to join the EU. One month later the Conservatives under Ted Heath took over and the process of negotiation got underway. This culminated in a White Paper which the government shortened into a booklet to persuade a sceptical public. The following five quotes about a Britain inside the European Community are taken from that booklet:-

1. “There is no question of Britain losing essential national sovereignty”

* A lie. Between 55% and 70% of all legislation going through Westminster, now originates in Brussels. We have already lost over half our sovereignty, and that percentage is increasing remorselessly.

2. “When a government considers that vital national interests are involved, decisions are only made if all members agree”

* Untrue. Under majority voting rules, Britain can be and often is outvoted by the other members on most areas of policy.

3. “Our people and our industries (will be) more prosperous ..... than if we remain outside.”

* Untrue. The two countries in Western Europe which have remained outside - Switzerland and Norway - are, per head of population, both better off than Britain.

4. “The English Welsh and Scottish legal systems will continue as before ...”

* A lie. Since we joined the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg can and does overrule decisions taken by the highest courts in Britain.

5. “The (existing members) have not lost any of their national identities, national institutions and points of view. Nor will Britain.”

* A lie. From the innumerable small businesses overwhelmed by EU red tape, to our distinctive British passports, we have lost out. From our traditional weights and measures, to national self-sufficiency in farm produce, we have lost out. Under 30,000 EU Directives the distinctive and historic nations of Europe are all being ‘harmonised’ out of existence.

Don't mind me, I'm just pulling a cartman.

 

[cartman]

I think Blair took one for the team, as we say here. I'm sure he can visit Shrubs ranch anytime.

 

[Molly Hatchet]

She might have been the greatest leader in terms of the strength of her personality, but a lot of her policies were based on a flawed ideology and ruined local economies and almost destroyed many important aspects of education. Being a resident of Northern England, Thatcher is comparitable with Hitler because she destroyed the job market and ruined local industries.

Whoa whoa whoa.. do not blame that on Thatcher. The economy was already going way downhill before she came to power. Just like with Reagan. We saw high unemployment in his first years and even a recession. But over time it led to prosperity, which we are STILL enjoying.

Thatchers reforms were very tough to begin with but you must admit they have not been changed all that much man. And the UK economy is far from being in the shitty situations that France and Germany are experiencing. You thank God... and Margaret.. for that.

 

[cartman]

Exactly what I was saying. It was a bad predication. If the reasoning for war was changed, then I'm damn sure the people and all parties besides the LibDems would have supported the effort.

I've always felt Bush and Blair went for the "home run" instead of just hitting the double to drive in the runs to win permanent support. Or if you prefer the soccer analogy, they decided to be the hat trick heroes instead of crossing the ball into the box to get the header for the golden goal.

Oh they were too idealist after all.... that's rich. I doubt any preventive war can be sold unless you put the fear into people i.e. "imminent threat"

 

[Molly Hatchet]

4. “The English Welsh and Scottish legal systems will continue as before ...”

* A lie. Since we joined the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg can and does overrule decisions taken by the highest courts in Britain.


That is the only true statement in that ideology. Comparing the UK to the Swiss or to Norway is so fucking stupid it's ridiculous.