A Rogue Thread

H

Heimdal

Veteran XX
so a buddy dragged me back into the game, and i started a rogue. he's almost 62 at the moment, and i had a few questions~

first off, my armory for anyone that cares The World of Warcraft Armory

i'm sub obviously. i duo pretty much all the time with my friend, who is a prot paladin. i realize combat would have probably been a better choice for aoe pulls, but i like our odds in pvp more with sub. i like the play style of sub more also.

first off, going on my spec right now, is ghostly strike worth getting over say.. vile poisons 4/5? i do plan on doing arenas, though i can't say how much since i don't really like arena as it is. i do mainly want to pvp though. i know ghostly strike + evasion can make you near invincible to melee. a dodge trinket would make it so.

i know combat is pretty much the best raiding spec. i've seen logs of other specs reaching it, sometimes passing it, but it seems combat is the one way to do it without trying too hard. that's fine, but are other specs viable? namely mutilate. i don't expect the new +crit for it to make this build amazingly good, but wondering if anyone has tried it. i like the utility more from assassination and sub, but if they will never be as good as combat for raiding, then i guess there is no use trying to convince.

on a side note, i don't think i'll make it to raiding shit like hyjal, black temple, and so forth. so maybe that will change the decision on specs other than combat being viable. mainly things like kara some for gear, za, etc.

and on the subject of mutilate, how does it fair for general pve? anyone tried it for leveling in outlands perhaps? i was considering trying it once i got 2 good daggers, as i have seen some pretty impressive damage output from people using it. usually in top pvp or pve gear though. and again, this is duoing with a prot paladin. i will be doing so until 70. at that point i'll spec for whatever it is we will be doing after that.
 
I leveled with mutilate and in terms of DPS for PvE it can get up there with other specs, with one fatal flaw. Next to mutilate the next biggest thing use was Envenom. Mainly because 5/5 Vile Poisons increased Envenom by 20%. And since it's nature damage it wasn't classified as physical and therefore wasn't mitigated by armor. The fatal flaw came when you had to face mobs which were inherently immune to poison, that can tank your DPS quite a bit.

PvP-wise Mutilate is simply fun. I always got a kick out of it but I never attmpted trying to capitalize on Vile Posions in PvP simply because there wouldn't be enough time to get 5 doses on your target with 5 combo and then hit it.

I'm not sure how the DPS is on it now, since they changed Imp. Backstab to Puncturing Wounds (given Mutilate an increased 15% crit chance) But I'm stuck with my S1 knives so I've swapped around from Mut to SS to Combat Daggers to figure out what I want. Still on SS/PvP spec, which is fun but you have to work more to target casters but I do it for shits and kicks.
 
I also leveled with mutilate from 60-70 almost entirely solo except for a few key group quests. As far as DPS goes I always top my groups (reg/heroics only) and in PvP it depends on the flavor. I nearly always top with kills and about 3-4th place in dmg (damn locks) and in arenas it's a bit tougher I'll admit but in terms of dps I almost always top my group. Getting combo points on full in two shots is incredibly fun, imo.

Now that's a very biased view there and I've yet to try ShS or combat. I haven't been combat since before BC.

Again, I don't do much other than PvP and the rare heroic from time to time so this is all coming from a very casual player.
 
In BGs I never see mutilate. Everyone seems to be Combat Maces/Swords to 41 and they put the 20 somewhere else. That or they are some SS-Sword SS-mace Combat hybrid. Those guys seem to fight pretty well but I see them all in S1/S2 blades and clubs.

A cold blood full envenom with Vile Poisons can be just as sick as a cold blood mutilate. I'm not sure how much more the mutilate would get if you got both instant poison to proc though.

Though I'm still miffed eviscerate is more or less dead. I still remember pre-TBC you'd 5-point eviscerate and it crit for 2500 damage and you felt all warm and fuzzy because at most people had 5000 - 6000 HP. Now you do it and even casters toting 10,000+ that same attack seems like a normal melee swing.
 
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i use evis to finish off a caster mob, but other than that meh. i get a lot more out of rupture and kidney shot.

and generalhell, that's pretty much what i do at this point. like i said, i may do kara and za and so forth every now and then, but at this point in the game (and with war and aoc this year) i don't really see myself doing hardcore raiding. i see a lot of potential with mutilate, and i'll probably end up trying it simply because i never have.
 
Yeah there's not many finishing moves anymore, depends on your style. Combats tend to prefer SnD. You get 5-points of that and hit Blade Flurry and you get all crazy-go-nuts. Most people still use Kidney Shot to stun, and last ditch usually Rupture or Envenom if you went Assassin.

Rupture is more useful for me in PvP, even a 1-point move will DoT someone enough to disrupt bandaging if they fear/CC you. And since it's a bleed effect there's not as much around to get rid of it. One thing I DID see was a rogue using Expose Armor on a paladin. Which seemed to work because he apparently managed to kill him.

:shrug: I still think the essence of the rogue is largely broken.
 
Feannag said:
I leveled with mutilate and in terms of DPS for PvE it can get up there with other specs, with one fatal flaw. Next to mutilate the next biggest thing use was Envenom. Mainly because 5/5 Vile Poisons increased Envenom by 20%. And since it's nature damage it wasn't classified as physical and therefore wasn't mitigated by armor. The fatal flaw came when you had to face mobs which were inherently immune to poison, that can tank your DPS quite a bit.

PvP-wise Mutilate is simply fun. I always got a kick out of it but I never attmpted trying to capitalize on Vile Posions in PvP simply because there wouldn't be enough time to get 5 doses on your target with 5 combo and then hit it.

I'm not sure how the DPS is on it now, since they changed Imp. Backstab to Puncturing Wounds (given Mutilate an increased 15% crit chance) But I'm stuck with my S1 knives so I've swapped around from Mut to SS to Combat Daggers to figure out what I want. Still on SS/PvP spec, which is fun but you have to work more to target casters but I do it for shits and kicks.
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please stop giving rogue advice. jesus christ someone post the picard facepalm smiley.
 
I think the first thing you learn from posting here is to never listen to Feannag, he usually doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
 
Die Hard!!{SDB} said:
I think the first thing you learn from posting here is to never listen to Feannag, he usually doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
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Least I'm known for something. If any luck AoC or WAR will officially retire me from WoW. Trying to BG as Alliance is aggravating enough. When I feel we are losing badly I bring up the BG map and play "Guess the Constellation" from all the alliance dots scattered all over the place like a star chart.

If you want real rogue advice though, PM Carebear Pessi.
 
i personally dislike combat. the only reason i'd go combat is for raiding. it's not about faster leveling for me, i'm already leveling fairly fast for the amount of time i spend each day in my duo.

i personally feel sub and assassination are better for standard leveling once you have decent gear. sub is amazing for those inevitable pvp encounters while leveling. so is mutilate, since i can run around most everyone all day and mutilate the shit out of them. there are still so many keyboard turners :\

i went with mutilate tonight with some decent daggers and the damage can be pretty amazing. i do miss all the stuff in sub though :\ prep and faster vanish got me out of some close calls. lack of stealth detection, and easier to detect stealth is pretty annoying, but i'm trying to deal with it. i may stick with it until 70 so i can get dual wield spec 5/5, which should improve my mutilate damage by a nice amount.

pretty sure i'm going full sub for arenas though for the stealth detection, and increasing my own stealth. otherwise i'll probably get sapped before i even realize there is another rogue there.
 
Heimdal said:
i personally dislike combat. the only reason i'd go combat is for raiding. it's not about faster leveling for me, i'm already leveling fairly fast for the amount of time i spend each day in my duo.

i personally feel sub and assassination are better for standard leveling once you have decent gear. sub is amazing for those inevitable pvp encounters while leveling. so is mutilate, since i can run around most everyone all day and mutilate the shit out of them. there are still so many keyboard turners :\

i went with mutilate tonight with some decent daggers and the damage can be pretty amazing. i do miss all the stuff in sub though :\ prep and faster vanish got me out of some close calls. lack of stealth detection, and easier to detect stealth is pretty annoying, but i'm trying to deal with it. i may stick with it until 70 so i can get dual wield spec 5/5, which should improve my mutilate damage by a nice amount.

pretty sure i'm going full sub for arenas though for the stealth detection, and increasing my own stealth. otherwise i'll probably get sapped before i even realize there is another rogue there.
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I switched out from that stealth detection and as I can figure the difference is rougly 3 - 6 yards or so. If they have Dirty Tricks there's a good chance they can sap you before being detected and if you do detect them it'll be less than a second before they sap. It can help if you have a good connection and fast reflexes.

As for those who say I don't know what I'm talking about, prove it. There's plenty of WoW-nerd sites where people crunch data and numbers, grab any page from there to prove me wrong. Hell be real lazy and hit up Elitist Jerk forum, I'm sure they'll have proof there.
 
Leveling in the sub tree is usually regarded along the lines of "Hey guys, I'm a melee hunter!"

I leveled most of 60-70 as Muti. It was fun, and highly effective against single mobs. With muti you could pretty much keep them stunned and do crazy burst damage to bring down a single mob before they can hit you more than twice. I finished it as combat and I've been combat ever since with weekend binges in the Sub and Ass trees.

I've raided with combat swords, fists, and daggers, and I'll say this:
I put out the most consistant, heavy DPS with swords. Fists were close, but not quite. Daggers was.... interesting. Most of my white damage was garbage, but I'd pop 3200+ backstabs against TK/Hyjal raid bosses.

In the long run, rogues are the single most broken class in the game at the moment, which sucks for us, but whatever. The point is to have fun, and when I can walk into a BG in combat spec and pop all my cooldowns in a group of clothies and kill 4 of em while they struggle, failing to kill me, I'm having fun.

Just have fun. If you're not going to raid or PVP hardcore, don't worry about your spec or gear, just have fun.
 
LGBR said:
Leveling in the sub tree is usually regarded along the lines of "Hey guys, I'm a melee hunter!"
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eh, i killed mobs pretty fast. even beat out a combat rogue in dps in a ramparts group i was in yesterday. granted i probably know what i'm doing more than the average rogue, but it's by no means as bad as being a melee hunter hah.

i'll probably stick with sub at 70 mainly. i find rogue for the most part fairly fun so far. maybe that will wear off eventually, but so far so good.
 
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Hay guys best of both worlds: spec HARP!

Hemo Adrenaline Rush Preparation will combine you zany love of leveling Sub with the awesomeness that is the combat tree for everything else.

I leveled combat until 68 and then HARP and absolutely loved it. Mind you I had the GM Fist at 2.9 speed which made Hemo that much more sweet-balls but you had every skill you really needed.

Because really if you're not blowing Blade Flurry every 2 mins and taking two mobs at once you're just wasting time (4 with AR running as well). Cooldowns should always be on cooldown, you get no points for losing an hour on a quest due to some douchebag attacking you. I would routinely keep evasion, slice/dice, blade flurry up as much as possible and focus on killing as many guys as possible without stopping. Deep combat is best for that with 20 in Ass. but if you insist on Hemo, please spec HARP.

Lastly, almost as an afterthought, you can spec Mut as well, but IMO it's a pain in the ass to level with. Positional solo PVE sucks and the crippling/wounding you are wasting to keep mut viable would be better spent with 2x instants on some badass swords/fists.

Just my .02!
 
I think part of the reason rogues are broken is not really class jobs but how the job is done. Assassination generally does more in poison application/damage and burst from mut. Combat is generally straight up all weapon damage and hitting more than one mob and higher attack speed. Sub seems more on one-time burst on opening.

The problem lies in that each of these trees do different amounts of different types of damage even with different weapons. Since a couple of key skills (like SS and hemo) deal weapon damage +xx or 1xx% of weapon damage people tend to pick swords or macesbecause swing-for-swing they dole out more damage than daggers will. I'm not sure about fists, but given I see them in BGs and world PvP maybe once in a blue moon I'd probably suspect they may not be as preferred (that or swords are better for raiding)

Guess the point is rogues are broken, so choose what spec/weapons you like as long as you have fun.
 
Rogues are broken? Its easily one of the most common 3v3 classes you find, and on top of that, top alot of DPS charts on certain fights.

Rogues are fine ;/
 
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