Have ya ever met a happy atheist?

atheists usually don't mind muslims at all

they just hate the christian god with a passion

That comparison doesn't work because you're comparing people to a deity. I don't mind Jews, Scientologists, Jehova's Witnesses, Christians, Muslims, Hindus or whatever as long as they keep their inane ideas out of my face, out of public schools, and out of government.

I hate the IDEA of the God they pray to very much. I hate that they cry for tax shelter; I want to see every mosque, synagogue, church, and monastery taxed to extreme. I want them taxed the way we tax alcohol, tobacco, and gambling.

Cliffs: I can't hate something that doesn't exist, but I can hate the idea of it being taught to children.
 
i'd say having a nation that was founded on christian values that has lasted this long and has been a good nation is a good demonstration. and to see that it's failing fast because the christian values of it's citizens are waning, well, that's another good demonstration. :shrug:

I guess we should base a nation off of the Roman gods then
 
You said that trying to demonstrate your sense of god to me is equivalent to trying to demonstrate the sense of green to a colorblind person. I presented you with a way of giving a colorblind person good reason to believe that green exists. So, what's the equivalent way of giving me a good reason to believe that god exists?
 
i'd say having a nation that was founded on christian values that has lasted this long and has been a good nation is a good demonstration. and to see that it's failing fast because the christian values of it's citizens are waning, well, that's another good demonstration. :shrug:
by what criteria is it failing fast?

xtianity is inherently progressive in many respects but also has a long history of progressive reformation.

the reason Islam is still so assbackwards is because the people refuse to evolve and reform with modern values, mostly due to conservative theocracy imo. that and the shithole condition of many islamic countries.
 
i'd say having a nation that was founded on christian values that has lasted this long and has been a good nation is a good demonstration. and to see that it's failing fast because the christian values of it's citizens are waning, well, that's another good demonstration. :shrug:
1. If you're thinking of the US, it was not founded on christian values. Except perhaps slavery, I'll give you that one.

2. You haven't established a quantifiable metric for what is a failing country.

3. You haven't demonstrated that the country is failing.

4. You haven't demonstrated that it's failing because of the christian values of its citizens waning.


Care to fill in those gaps real quick?
 
does anyone here believe that if humans didn't exist, pcs and xboxs would eventually just exist, maybe just grow out of the ground?

i mean, that's basically what you are saying, that eventually if it can exist, it will just pop up and exist eventually, no intelligent design needed.

i thought this excerpt from an article online was pretty good:

The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has wide margin between its boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously. Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.



The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."

The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.
All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

you say there's no proof, no good reason to believe that a higher power exists that might have designed this universe. i say there is good reason all around us, and you're blind.
 
i'd say having a nation that was founded on christian values that has lasted this long and has been a good nation is a good demonstration. and to see that it's failing fast because the christian values of it's citizens are waning, well, that's another good demonstration. :shrug:

yeah great Christian nation you got there

genocide of native americans
slavery
segregation
vietnam
iraq

just a couple of things off the top of my head

I can only assume you're taking about the little known Christian values of totally selling your citizens out to capitalism and consumerism, because that's the only thing that the US is exceptionally good at/known for (other than the fat/loud/stupid thing, but let's not get personal)
 
It's pretty easy to swallow when you consider the scale of space and time

Billions of years is a much longer time than we can even begin to comprehend
 
does anyone here believe that if humans didn't exist, pcs and xboxs would eventually just exist, maybe just grow out of the ground?

i mean, that's basically what you are saying, that eventually if it can exist, it will just pop up and exist eventually, no intelligent design needed.

i thought this excerpt from an article online was pretty good:



you say there's no proof, no good reason to believe that a higher power exists that might have designed this universe. i say there is good reason all around us, and you're blind.
we can retrace and explain every biological component or mechanism in your body, for example, as a result of evolution by natural selection.from cells, to bones, to a central nervous system to each organ in your body.

I can't on the other hand, rationally explain how an Xbox can magically appear from nothing. I don't know how such a thing can be possible.

conversely, can you explain all the horribly "designed" features of your body? let's leave aside an easy example of your tailbone, let's talk about how terrible the eye is allegedly designed?

if something can be explained, tested and proven to happen by natural means, why insist that something supernatural is involved? why not just take the simple, provable, rational explanation?
 
does anyone here believe that if humans didn't exist, pcs and xboxs would eventually just exist, maybe just grow out of the ground?

i mean, that's basically what you are saying, that eventually if it can exist, it will just pop up and exist eventually, no intelligent design needed.
Nobody in their right mind is saying that.

As for the difference between humans and PCs:

We understand the detailed mechanics that could lead non-organic matter to form organic matter, then simple life, then complex life, then intelligent life. We have demonstrated to a high degree of confidence that each step along the way is possible purely as a result of natural processes. We have no reason to believe that anything other than the laws of physics were at play.

We also understand how PCs and Xboxes are made, and we're confident that those processes don't occur naturally.
 
We understand the detailed mechanics that could lead non-organic matter to form organic matter, then simple life, then complex life, then intelligent life. We have demonstrated to a high degree of confidence that each step along the way is possible purely as a result of natural processes. We have no reason to believe that anything other than the laws of physics were at play.

total randomness cant put that in a test tube the laws of physics

are alpha and omega they just are OK
 
conversely, can you explain all the horribly "designed" features of your body? let's leave aside an easy example of your tailbone, let's talk about how terrible the eye is allegedly designed?
Intelligent design: Because sharing a section of the airway with the digestive tract is a great idea.
 
You're kinda... nuts. :nuts:

But anyway, I never cited the Bible as a source for anything. Personally I think the Bible is a convoluted and misconstrued pain in the ass, but definitely has some great parables in it. But so do Grimm's Fairy Tales too. So... I don't consider the Bible to be anything more than what it is - a book, written over thousands of years, by men interpreting things, which has some great parts, but a lot of "wtf" too.

Also, Jesus is mentioned in more than just the Bible. He's in the Koran and in historical records from Israel and Rome, etc. So it's safe to say he was an actual historical figure at the very least.

I happen to like Jesus and think he was a standup dude. I don't believe in SuperJesus, with a red "J" on his chest, walking on water and acting like the Miracle Caterer making sandwiches appear out of the abyss, but as a dude, he was righteous. And since I prefer to follow the teachings of Christ, that makes me a "Christian" I guess.

But it's irrelevant anyway because the thread wasn't even about Jesus or any particular religion, or even religion in general. It was about atheists being pretty miserable people, only it took a turn into debating the entire concept of God, or as I like to term it, a higher power. Which you and others claim doesn't exist because it can't be proven in a laboratory, and for 20 some-odd pages I've argued the point that, just because it can't be duplicated in a laboratory or "proven" with science, it doesn't mean that it does not exist.

"Religion" and "spirituality" are not synonymous.

God and science are not mutually exclusive.

i can agree with most of this.

Whatever higher power it is, its not in any religion we have. None of which make any bit of fucking sense.
 
So now we've delegated it to a matter of natural selection being real and Havax being uncertain of it. This is an advancement, of sorts, him now being uncertain of the most basic science.

On the other hand, where his certainty is unwavering, is his devotion and love for his prophet that was ready to gut his kid while still alive (Abraham) and same for this God that watches young girls in his city raped by their kin, and watches all with folded arms.

The difference between me and the God that Havax sings hymns to, is that if I saw an innocent being tortured, and I had the ability to stop it, I would. Havax gives devotion to a deity that prefers to watch.
 
Back
Top