Vengeance Vengeance
- Thread starter Marweas
- Start date
Hurricane Harold
Veteran X
It wasn't a plan as I read it, as much as an instruction in what not to do in a plan.
Nutcracker
Veteran X
Woah, Tribes 2 sold 750k copies? 
Vir said:
And who is going to pick up on a game series that is completely dead, and thus has no following/loyal community? That would be identicle to creating an entirely new franchise, and hoping that the risk payed off.
Far better to pick it up while there is still some trace of it left. That way we/GG/whoever might still have access to T1/T2 source code etc. The sooner this happens the better the chance is of picking up where we left off. Waiting for it to truly die won't get us anywhere.
It depends a bit on how you interpret the phrase "permanently dead", which is what I was commenting on.
[edit] Another thought:
Tribes 1 had 11(?) patches.
Tribes 2 had 20 or more patches (or so it seemed to me).
Tribes: Vengeance has one patch.
Which one has the least players?
Is there really any wonder that T:V has not had the same following or longevity that the other two had? T2 is the key example - many vets like myself hated it until classic came out, and that was how long after release? If T:V had that kind of support it would be doing significantly better now than it is. It still wouldn't suit many, but we'd still have pleanty of time to get to that 'classic' mod...
Zustiur.
Last edited:
guy.welch said:
FUCK YOU GUY. There i said it. You fucking killed the tribes franchise. By not allowing T:V to be patched, the modding community has given up. How dare you show your fucking moronic ass on these forums. How dare you mention BF2 compared to tribes.
You have got a lot of nerve you cocksucking piece of shit.
There im done now.
DOOPY_LOOPY
Veteran X
This is a really funny thread, i read some pages but then thought fuck it.
Who cares what the game is called, you can call it -RIBES-!
and put whatever content you want in it, all you want is a well designed fun game that has the "tribes" feel and physics to it.
So why not just "bug" GG the original developers to come out with a new RIBES game as they see fit, of course fitting in with the idea of what we think of as Tribes. That'd be really interesting.
Tim Gift, Mark Frohnmayer, Jeff Tunnel etc, make us a game that we'll love! Give us the Tribes type game that you'd want to make in this day and age and make it fun and interesting and give us decent support.
Plz thx!
Oh and for the record I loved and played Starseige:Tribes when it came out until Tribes2 came out, then I loved and played that game. I felt that when Tribes2 came out that it was the superior game to Starseige: Tribes. The major thing that shit me off were the patch revisions but moreso the tweeking of game play. The point is I liked both those games but it's time for a new one, a Tribes game for 2005 and Vengeance is not it, perhaps we'll see a Tribes game for 2007 *shrug*
Who cares what the game is called, you can call it -RIBES-!
and put whatever content you want in it, all you want is a well designed fun game that has the "tribes" feel and physics to it.
So why not just "bug" GG the original developers to come out with a new RIBES game as they see fit, of course fitting in with the idea of what we think of as Tribes. That'd be really interesting.
Tim Gift, Mark Frohnmayer, Jeff Tunnel etc, make us a game that we'll love! Give us the Tribes type game that you'd want to make in this day and age and make it fun and interesting and give us decent support.
Plz thx!
Oh and for the record I loved and played Starseige:Tribes when it came out until Tribes2 came out, then I loved and played that game. I felt that when Tribes2 came out that it was the superior game to Starseige: Tribes. The major thing that shit me off were the patch revisions but moreso the tweeking of game play. The point is I liked both those games but it's time for a new one, a Tribes game for 2005 and Vengeance is not it, perhaps we'll see a Tribes game for 2007 *shrug*
Last edited:
It's not even a matter of which one was best in whoever's eyes. It's which approach is ultimately going to be most popular in the end. Which approach is going to leave us with a healthy vibrant community so someone even has a desire to mod something. Who cares if people are split into 3 camps. If you are unhappy that the base game is not made to how you specifically like tribes, you're simply going to have to swallow your pride knowing that it is in the best interest of the future of this franchise that the game be designed a certain way. Of course everyone deserves working, easy to use mod tools, and that is what will be your only comfort, knowing you will be able to change the game to how you see fit.
When you start to think about it in terms of popularity, it becomes very easy to design the next tribes game. New blood(or in this case newb blood)loves vehicles centric play like that of T2. They love just hopping in something and flying/driving around. Even if they accomplish absolutely nothing towards the outcome of the map. They love the auto locking/seeking rocket of tribes 2 that vets hated, it was there way of compensating for a lack of skill on their part. They love overpowered base D. They love huge maps with huge numbers of players. It's no brainer features like these that will make for a popular tribes game but make no mistake, it will take tremendous courage from a "me first" community to help design this way. Of course we could always turn tribes into a CS/cod clone, does anyone want that? Does anyone even think that could work? heh
When you start to think about it in terms of popularity, it becomes very easy to design the next tribes game. New blood(or in this case newb blood)loves vehicles centric play like that of T2. They love just hopping in something and flying/driving around. Even if they accomplish absolutely nothing towards the outcome of the map. They love the auto locking/seeking rocket of tribes 2 that vets hated, it was there way of compensating for a lack of skill on their part. They love overpowered base D. They love huge maps with huge numbers of players. It's no brainer features like these that will make for a popular tribes game but make no mistake, it will take tremendous courage from a "me first" community to help design this way. Of course we could always turn tribes into a CS/cod clone, does anyone want that? Does anyone even think that could work? heh
Last edited:
Hmm, just voicing a random idea here:
I wonder if you could give tribes different levels of play, similar to difficulty levels in singleplayer -
1) Beginner level - T2 base. Vehicle centric with less emphasis on skiing etc
2) Intermediate level - Tribes: Vengeance gameplay
3) Veteran level - T1/T2C
I don't really think it would work, but it is an interesting concept on its own.
p.s. I mean no offence in referring to T2 base as beginner level. Vir's comment about Noobs loving vehicles is the basis I'm working on, not on any actual skill level required etc.
Zustiur.
I wonder if you could give tribes different levels of play, similar to difficulty levels in singleplayer -
1) Beginner level - T2 base. Vehicle centric with less emphasis on skiing etc
2) Intermediate level - Tribes: Vengeance gameplay
3) Veteran level - T1/T2C
I don't really think it would work, but it is an interesting concept on its own.
p.s. I mean no offence in referring to T2 base as beginner level. Vir's comment about Noobs loving vehicles is the basis I'm working on, not on any actual skill level required etc.
Zustiur.
DOOPY_LOOPY
Veteran X
You can't have difficulty levels on a multiplayer game. You can have beginner servers or vet servers, but I've never had much appreciation for that idea either, beginners need to get better through tenacity and playing people better than them.
Having read the other 10 pages of this thread, I like that we're all united by the fact that we LOVE TRIBES and I think it is completely unconstructive to try to "do" something to VUG. Big waste of time and effort, why not try to do something constructive like sell VUG on the idea of a "cost free" remake to them, in the same way that SS:2845? have permission from VUG to create their stand alone game as they see fit without undue influence.
Perhaps a new Tribes game realised by GG could be beneficial to GG by being a showcase title for the latest incarnation of their TSE. Maybe they could negotiate to distribute in akin to Steam personally keeping any profits and VUG could keep all profits related to publishing it.
Some sort of business plan to make a viable and attractive Tribes game would be much more beneficial than looking for ways to screw VUG over.
vir have some children with me we can teach em good gaming philosophy and programming and let them make it.
much <3
That's what I've always wanted too.
I think in terms of player numbers the biggest let down was the rollout and subsequent patching and unpatching and repatching of Tribes2. If it had gone more smoothly and had less actual hard crashing errors and the patches been more thoroughly tested I think it would have had a lot more market penetration and a larger existing player base even to this day. At that time in game "history" it was perfectly positioned to clean up the stagnant multiplayer market, there were no real games of scaled multiplayer tactical combat. Obviously now you're fighting with the battlefield franchise, Halo2 and the increase of multiplayer console games as well as more sophisticated UT2004 etc.
Having read the other 10 pages of this thread, I like that we're all united by the fact that we LOVE TRIBES and I think it is completely unconstructive to try to "do" something to VUG. Big waste of time and effort, why not try to do something constructive like sell VUG on the idea of a "cost free" remake to them, in the same way that SS:2845? have permission from VUG to create their stand alone game as they see fit without undue influence.
Perhaps a new Tribes game realised by GG could be beneficial to GG by being a showcase title for the latest incarnation of their TSE. Maybe they could negotiate to distribute in akin to Steam personally keeping any profits and VUG could keep all profits related to publishing it.
Some sort of business plan to make a viable and attractive Tribes game would be much more beneficial than looking for ways to screw VUG over.
vir have some children with me we can teach em good gaming philosophy and programming and let them make it.
much <3
That's what I've always wanted too.
I think in terms of player numbers the biggest let down was the rollout and subsequent patching and unpatching and repatching of Tribes2. If it had gone more smoothly and had less actual hard crashing errors and the patches been more thoroughly tested I think it would have had a lot more market penetration and a larger existing player base even to this day. At that time in game "history" it was perfectly positioned to clean up the stagnant multiplayer market, there were no real games of scaled multiplayer tactical combat. Obviously now you're fighting with the battlefield franchise, Halo2 and the increase of multiplayer console games as well as more sophisticated UT2004 etc.
guy.welch said:
This is the first post you have posted here in ages. Why don't you just stay out of a forum that loves Tribes. You obviously have no idea just how much hatred there is for VUG right now.
You can't even give us answers to what we wanted. You avoided this place when people were screaming for answers to where the patch was. It is amazing that someone like you who claims to be a marketing man has just stood by and watch this series go downhill without saying a word.
A long time ago I asked you a queston and you refused to answer it. The box design on T:V was horrific. Members of this community gave you their opinion and made better box designs. You simply ignored us. I am sure if you showed the covers and did a poll on it the one that was used for T:V would not have been close.
So maybe now you can answer my queston. Why do you refuse to listen to the people who will buy the product?
When you make something that is appealing people will buy it. The box might not be something major but it is a big piece of marketing. HL2 box art was so much better than the one you had for T:V.
I spent over 5 years working in marketing at Disney. When we wanted to do something we would ask the people what they wanted. We would take a poll of people and then refine it and do it again and again. In the end we found what people wanted and gave it to them and it was very successful.
Why doesn't VUG follow that same thing? You release a hack of a game full of holes that doesn't appeal to the audience you wanted. It seems as though VUG intended to kill the Tribes series. You appoint idiots like Thrax to run things that just bashes the games predecesor. You can't have that. You have to take the best of everything and combine it. You need to listen but that is something I see you are incapable of.
Last edited:
Some of us might still remember when Starsiege and T1 were under development. When you could just sit in irc.dynamix.com and chat with Rick Overman, Mark Frohnmayer, etc . . . as they worked or had lunch. When they actually had office webcams and Sierra (then owned by Cendent) actually allowed its dev teams to pay for their own webmaster and run their own forums.
It's not 1998 anymore, and community is no longer a project of the developer. At least, not the way Havas/VUG started doing things. I agree with Vir (probably the most qualified person alive to talk about T2 base+vehicles) that Tribes 2's success was rooted in base play that vets loathed. T2 would have been better if vets could make their mods out of the box instead of needing the patch two years later. (A patch, as far as I know, that Thrax and Marweas sold as an investment in a community that could reap great returns.)
In retrospect with regard to T:V's development, I think choosing IG underestimated the genius in Mark Frohnmayer's net code and the Torque engine built for Tribes from the ground up. It could not simply be reproduced in a prettier engine on a quick timeline. As much as everyone bitched about Torque, it was (and now with TSE still is) the best engine for this type of game. Excusing the early UEs, it still has the best net code ever put together and many folks making successful titles today read Mark's papers.
It's not 1998 anymore, and community is no longer a project of the developer. At least, not the way Havas/VUG started doing things. I agree with Vir (probably the most qualified person alive to talk about T2 base+vehicles) that Tribes 2's success was rooted in base play that vets loathed. T2 would have been better if vets could make their mods out of the box instead of needing the patch two years later. (A patch, as far as I know, that Thrax and Marweas sold as an investment in a community that could reap great returns.)
In retrospect with regard to T:V's development, I think choosing IG underestimated the genius in Mark Frohnmayer's net code and the Torque engine built for Tribes from the ground up. It could not simply be reproduced in a prettier engine on a quick timeline. As much as everyone bitched about Torque, it was (and now with TSE still is) the best engine for this type of game. Excusing the early UEs, it still has the best net code ever put together and many folks making successful titles today read Mark's papers.
Last edited:
SmOkkin' Joe
Veteran X
FishStix said:
yeah we all know how TW war threads inevitably turn into flame/bickering threads.
omg, this thread is long. I've only made it to page 10 so far, so forgive me if this has already been said, but I need to get it out before my head explodes from the long read. 
Trying to rescue the IP from VUG is a lost cause. The only way it will be saved, is for it to be bought by the community, which will probably never happen for several reasons. (Primarily, VUG would never give away something of monetary value, especially when it still has profit potential, regardless of how small that potential is...)
That said, I believe the best hope for the continuation of Tribes would be:
1) Create a new game/universe based on Tribes, to be IP unencumbered.
2) Open source the game/universe, so that it is owned by the community, and allow any mods / story archs that people can come up with.
3) Run a decent community center website for the game, to be a central up-to-date repository which tracks all mods / patches / servers so that people can easily find what they are looking for.
As has been pointed out previously in this thread, the gaming industry is rapidly consolidating, and is no longer interested in anything other than the 'blockbuster' game. Therefore, I do not believe any game company is going to take any risk on creating a new cult classic, as Tribes was in its day.
Not only that, but Big Buisness has never been customer friendly. Once an organization becomes sufficiently large, it will undoubtably see it's customer base as meer numbers. It's what has happened to any industry (radio, music, film, games, etc..)
If you want the community to thrive, you have to start with fertile ground with good long term potential. And once a company like VUG/EA/etc, realizes they can make money from a story, they will become IP nazi's and erect a large defense network to protect that apparent value. Never mind that the value is only created as a result of the fans desire, and that locked away from the fans it's worth exactly nothing.
With that in mind, I believe the only way to create a thriving community is to remove the corporation from the equation. Creating a new universe in which to place a Tribes-like game is the only realistic long term answer to our problem. Sure, this will require a lot of effort, but it will also allow for things to expand in new directions.
And before you go all 'but VUG owns the IP to anything tribes related', keep in mind that there is no such thing as 'IP', only patents, copyrights, and trademarks. While they most certainly own the Trademark 'Starsiege:Tribes', and the copyright for the games source code, and art assets, they most certainly do not have a patent on 'sci-fi jetpack fps games'.
Recreating the basic essence of Tribes 1 in a new game that makes no direct reference to Tribes is completely legal. Otherwise every single fps would owe royalties to iD for creating the fps.
Making the game open source (including the engine) ensures that the source code is never 'lost' to any corporation, regardless of how good their intentions are (note: I have nothing but love for GG's, but even with GG's it's still posible the source could be 'lost'. And by lost, I mean that it wouldn't be legally available.)
Some would probably argue against this idea because of cheating. And while it would make creating cheats easier, it would also make patching the flaws easier. Once a cheat is found, a work around could be implemented as a stop-gap until a long term solution can be found. You could of course also run invite only servers, to allow you to keep track of player reputation.
Another benifit of open sourcing the game is creating fertile ground for growing the community. With anybody able to take the engine and create scripts/mods or new games using the same basic engine, you create a market, a market of ideas/concepts/art, but a market none the less. This is much like the after market mod community for cars, with many different vendors offering parts for customizing your ride.
Making customizeable gaming components will allow each gamer to enjoy their experience in their own unique ways, allowing many different individuals with different opinions/likes/dislikes to play the same game, and share in the same game world.
Also, running a community center is essential. TW is quite the nexus of Tribes space on the net, but a new game really needs it's own presence. TW could of course mirror anything, but creating a site that is extremely easy to navigate for quick updates to the game is key. I shouldn't have to spend more than 10 minutes to find out what I need to play the game on a particular server, or visit 3 different sites to download the necesary maps, only to find out I have a different version from the server....
Anyhow, back to page 10 I go!
(Oh, and if anybody wants to hire me to do what I can towards a new Tribes, I will be always and forever available.)
Trying to rescue the IP from VUG is a lost cause. The only way it will be saved, is for it to be bought by the community, which will probably never happen for several reasons. (Primarily, VUG would never give away something of monetary value, especially when it still has profit potential, regardless of how small that potential is...)
That said, I believe the best hope for the continuation of Tribes would be:
1) Create a new game/universe based on Tribes, to be IP unencumbered.
2) Open source the game/universe, so that it is owned by the community, and allow any mods / story archs that people can come up with.
3) Run a decent community center website for the game, to be a central up-to-date repository which tracks all mods / patches / servers so that people can easily find what they are looking for.
As has been pointed out previously in this thread, the gaming industry is rapidly consolidating, and is no longer interested in anything other than the 'blockbuster' game. Therefore, I do not believe any game company is going to take any risk on creating a new cult classic, as Tribes was in its day.
Not only that, but Big Buisness has never been customer friendly. Once an organization becomes sufficiently large, it will undoubtably see it's customer base as meer numbers. It's what has happened to any industry (radio, music, film, games, etc..)
If you want the community to thrive, you have to start with fertile ground with good long term potential. And once a company like VUG/EA/etc, realizes they can make money from a story, they will become IP nazi's and erect a large defense network to protect that apparent value. Never mind that the value is only created as a result of the fans desire, and that locked away from the fans it's worth exactly nothing.
With that in mind, I believe the only way to create a thriving community is to remove the corporation from the equation. Creating a new universe in which to place a Tribes-like game is the only realistic long term answer to our problem. Sure, this will require a lot of effort, but it will also allow for things to expand in new directions.
And before you go all 'but VUG owns the IP to anything tribes related', keep in mind that there is no such thing as 'IP', only patents, copyrights, and trademarks. While they most certainly own the Trademark 'Starsiege:Tribes', and the copyright for the games source code, and art assets, they most certainly do not have a patent on 'sci-fi jetpack fps games'.
Recreating the basic essence of Tribes 1 in a new game that makes no direct reference to Tribes is completely legal. Otherwise every single fps would owe royalties to iD for creating the fps.
Making the game open source (including the engine) ensures that the source code is never 'lost' to any corporation, regardless of how good their intentions are (note: I have nothing but love for GG's, but even with GG's it's still posible the source could be 'lost'. And by lost, I mean that it wouldn't be legally available.)
Some would probably argue against this idea because of cheating. And while it would make creating cheats easier, it would also make patching the flaws easier. Once a cheat is found, a work around could be implemented as a stop-gap until a long term solution can be found. You could of course also run invite only servers, to allow you to keep track of player reputation.
Another benifit of open sourcing the game is creating fertile ground for growing the community. With anybody able to take the engine and create scripts/mods or new games using the same basic engine, you create a market, a market of ideas/concepts/art, but a market none the less. This is much like the after market mod community for cars, with many different vendors offering parts for customizing your ride.
Making customizeable gaming components will allow each gamer to enjoy their experience in their own unique ways, allowing many different individuals with different opinions/likes/dislikes to play the same game, and share in the same game world.
Also, running a community center is essential. TW is quite the nexus of Tribes space on the net, but a new game really needs it's own presence. TW could of course mirror anything, but creating a site that is extremely easy to navigate for quick updates to the game is key. I shouldn't have to spend more than 10 minutes to find out what I need to play the game on a particular server, or visit 3 different sites to download the necesary maps, only to find out I have a different version from the server....
Anyhow, back to page 10 I go!
(Oh, and if anybody wants to hire me to do what I can towards a new Tribes, I will be always and forever available.
)Marweas said:
Marweas, you made this post in reference to me slamming the marketing of T:V. I suggest to you it was terrible, yet you posted the above quote. So you think the marketing was well done? Please explain. The 43,000 copies sold (this doesn't include returns I gather) was what you were hoping for? Next time aim a little higher my friend.