VUG's answer on the patch cancelation
- Thread starter NextGen
- Start date
Blaming TW for TV's flop is absurd. A friend recommended t1 to me, and about 2 months later t2 came out. I was one of the few peolpe that t2 worked flawless for out of the box. Sierra's site mentioned uvalan5, and the conference to meet the folx making TV. Going to uvalan 5,6 had nothing to do with TW. My opinions of t2 and tv also have nothing to do with tw. TW was, and still is the best place to find out trivial news on the franchise. 7,000 units sold compared to 400,000 can't be blamed on a single web-site forum. You remind me of the people saying tw-west was selling so poorly because "people are still at work", instead of realizing their just might have been only 500 or so die-hards whom really wanted to see the next tribes first.
TV failed because it was outsourced to people who didn't know what a pub was, and it strayed from a successful formula.
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I do think the box art had a slight bit to do with the sales. Their target when making T:V was to get new gamers to move over. If a gamer has no clue what Tribes is, what makes you think they're going to pick up a box that looks like trash. I do feel this is part of the reason behind the failure, however, it's far from the majority. You can speculate what I would say here. I choose not to waste anymore time yelping about the failure, but to help save the game we all love.
I'd like to see a clone made of the best of T1/T2/T:V if anybody has any ideas. I think the community can do it. I see lots of very experienced programmers that play Tribes that may be willing to offer assistance. I'm willing to offer any amount of server space, cpu time, my GarageGames.com Torque license, whatever it takes to salvage what's left of our community. I will even jump in and help coordinate the effort if anybody is willing. I'm a very experienced programmer myself so I'll offer any guidance I can. But before this can start, we have to let the bye-gones be bye-gones and move on.
If anybody is interested in any way, shape or form, email me: tribes@mojavi.org. You can reach me on irc.dynamix.com as MojoBlue in #dominant and #disgust.
I'd like to see a clone made of the best of T1/T2/T:V if anybody has any ideas. I think the community can do it. I see lots of very experienced programmers that play Tribes that may be willing to offer assistance. I'm willing to offer any amount of server space, cpu time, my GarageGames.com Torque license, whatever it takes to salvage what's left of our community. I will even jump in and help coordinate the effort if anybody is willing. I'm a very experienced programmer myself so I'll offer any guidance I can. But before this can start, we have to let the bye-gones be bye-gones and move on.
If anybody is interested in any way, shape or form, email me: tribes@mojavi.org. You can reach me on irc.dynamix.com as MojoBlue in #dominant and #disgust.
EveningWear
Veteran X
My 2¢
Errors, in order of occurance, regarding T:V
1. VUG put out developer requests without laying a proper groundwork for building a community of followers...and thus...purchasers.
2. IG, not fully understanding the requirements, chose an engine incapable of everything needed for a proper Tribes sequel(incapable of enough players and inadequate netcode) - the exorbitant amount of work put into the engine modifications for skiing, jetting, UGM(remember this) and AI development cost dearly in terms of netcode, dedicated server and optimizations. Could have done all the pretty graphics using a different engine with less changes(instead of spending resources on the heavy modification of Unreal, they could have been doing more graphics tweaking for an engine like Torque). Not to mention the cost for the license alone.
3. Integration of the HAVOK engine...useless in Tribes, ragdoll physics calculated on the server = bandwidth requirements/hard cpu time. Cool for a game like HL2 or Doom3...completely useless for Tribes. Not to mention the cost for the license.
4. VUG and IG led the marketing primarily on the single player game.
5. Poor release timing, too many bugs.
6. Poor support from VUG and unwillingness to produce fixes to a game they fully committed to(monetarily).
The basic design aspects of T:V were fairly solid, and the single player was/is a great idea(Tribes has awesome single player capability), but the fundamental ideas that create a dedicated community are so lacking, that it's not a surprise at the title's failure.
The art direction for T:V was outstanding, I loved how each Tribe had it's own feel and emotion. Fantastic job with the foliage, models, terrain and buildings. Solid, great looking stuff. The animation could have used a little work though...and the sounds needed LOTS of work.
Not that I really think my opinion makes a bit of difference for VUG or IG.
Errors, in order of occurance, regarding T:V
1. VUG put out developer requests without laying a proper groundwork for building a community of followers...and thus...purchasers.
2. IG, not fully understanding the requirements, chose an engine incapable of everything needed for a proper Tribes sequel(incapable of enough players and inadequate netcode) - the exorbitant amount of work put into the engine modifications for skiing, jetting, UGM(remember this) and AI development cost dearly in terms of netcode, dedicated server and optimizations. Could have done all the pretty graphics using a different engine with less changes(instead of spending resources on the heavy modification of Unreal, they could have been doing more graphics tweaking for an engine like Torque). Not to mention the cost for the license alone.
3. Integration of the HAVOK engine...useless in Tribes, ragdoll physics calculated on the server = bandwidth requirements/hard cpu time. Cool for a game like HL2 or Doom3...completely useless for Tribes. Not to mention the cost for the license.
4. VUG and IG led the marketing primarily on the single player game.
5. Poor release timing, too many bugs.
6. Poor support from VUG and unwillingness to produce fixes to a game they fully committed to(monetarily).
The basic design aspects of T:V were fairly solid, and the single player was/is a great idea(Tribes has awesome single player capability), but the fundamental ideas that create a dedicated community are so lacking, that it's not a surprise at the title's failure.
The art direction for T:V was outstanding, I loved how each Tribe had it's own feel and emotion. Fantastic job with the foliage, models, terrain and buildings. Solid, great looking stuff. The animation could have used a little work though...and the sounds needed LOTS of work.
Not that I really think my opinion makes a bit of difference for VUG or IG.
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Got Haggis?
Veteran XX
ZOD said:
and what would that be?
DGUnreal said:Whatever...
These forums are no doubt visited by a large number of the remaining Tribes fans. If every one of the members here told a couple of gamer friends that T:V sucked, and anyone coming to these forums to check out T:V prior to purchasing it (which I for one did do) read all of the trashing going on, then sales would have suffered. No one can argue that T2 had a lot of problems out of the gate (and still does), yet the community didn't crucify it like they did T:V, they stuck around and T2 got patched.
I guess because your posts say "vet" beside it, that means you are right about everything eh?
The IQ of most people posting in TW is considerably lower than that of any other forum I've been on.
I've never seen such a bunch of self-proclaiming know-it-all whiners in my entire life. Sheesh.
DGUnreal
Well, DG you can count me out... I didn't tell a couple of gamers T:V sucked. I told EVERY gamer I could FIND that T:V SUCKED!!! You can whine about all of us messengers ya moron. You just don't want to admit the VALID points REAL Tribes players have been itereating and REITERATING (ad nauseum) in this thread. T:V was NOT Tribes. WE didn't ask for it! We didn't ask for single player game and a online game with only HALF the things T2 had! You wouldn't know this of course. Look at your effin Identity! You don't have any reference to "Tribes" in your title but you DO have reference to Unreal!!!!
If I wanted to effin PLAY UNREAL I WOULD BUY UNREAL GET IT??? I WANT TRIBES! I STILL PLAY T2 LOTS! Ya can find me on Miami Vehicles Server OR any War 200x Mod Server!
Open up and listen to the vets instead of tellng people that have dedicated over half a decade of playing Tribes each what time of day it is. For your attitude in this I bestow thee the:
"Arrogant Obnoxious Moron Unreal Lovin Tribal Wannabe Award"
As for VUG is letting Tribes franchise die... To VUG I say... SEll it! Yes you heard me, YOU DON'T WANT IT! So sell it. If ya sold it for $10.00 that's $10.00 more than you're planning on making with it.
Sell it to Garage games. Or are ya SO petty youre afraid they might do it right and hit one outta th' BALL PARK on the marketing of it?
To everyone else going back and forth about if this guy or that guy was on the team or marketed it or blah, blah, blahhhhh.
It's simple. Tribes was based on an Engine created PRIMARILY FOR STARSEIGE AND TRIBES!!!! You can't forget that! It WORKED BEST for the concept that was T1 and T2!!! Tribes had (1 & 2) a rather significant learning curve and overall feel that T:V lacked miserably. T:V was arguably one of the BEST mods EVER for Unreal Tournament.
I have a couple of years in college studying Marketing and Sales and have been involved in sales jobs throughout my life. I am 48 yrs old. I have never marketed e-games but some principals hold true across the board. One misconception about sales is this, Myth = A good salesman can sell icecubes to Eskimos. Truth = You can't sell icecubes to Eskimos and be a good saleman, it simply makes you a CON-man!
Which brings me back to ALL the "marketing" errors talked about with T:V... The reason it didn't do well was not MARKETING, it was cause it SUCKED as Tribes! Diff marketing tactics coould maybe have helped but NOT SAVE T:V. To MARKET a widget you first have to have a decent widget. You in other words have to have a viable product. Think about it... Follow me here... T2 though BUGGY as HELL still outsold T1 and BLEW AWAY T:V!!!! T1 BLEW away T:V! But the point is though BUGGY T2 sold it's pants off cuase it was at heart a KICKASS Tribes game! I think recently released and posted sales figures back me up here.
If anything this T:V debacles obscured the vision of Tribes and set it back for months, years maybe even killed it. I hope not. But I will NOT say that T:V was anywheres NEAR a decent Tribes game when it wasnt!
I will NOT say the Emperor wears clothes when The Emperor Wears No Clothes!
Sell it to Garage games. Or are ya SO petty youre afraid they might do it right and hit one outta th' BALL PARK on the marketing of it?
To everyone else going back and forth about if this guy or that guy was on the team or marketed it or blah, blah, blahhhhh.
It's simple. Tribes was based on an Engine created PRIMARILY FOR STARSEIGE AND TRIBES!!!! You can't forget that! It WORKED BEST for the concept that was T1 and T2!!! Tribes had (1 & 2) a rather significant learning curve and overall feel that T:V lacked miserably. T:V was arguably one of the BEST mods EVER for Unreal Tournament.
I have a couple of years in college studying Marketing and Sales and have been involved in sales jobs throughout my life. I am 48 yrs old. I have never marketed e-games but some principals hold true across the board. One misconception about sales is this, Myth = A good salesman can sell icecubes to Eskimos. Truth = You can't sell icecubes to Eskimos and be a good saleman, it simply makes you a CON-man!
Which brings me back to ALL the "marketing" errors talked about with T:V... The reason it didn't do well was not MARKETING, it was cause it SUCKED as Tribes! Diff marketing tactics coould maybe have helped but NOT SAVE T:V. To MARKET a widget you first have to have a decent widget. You in other words have to have a viable product. Think about it... Follow me here... T2 though BUGGY as HELL still outsold T1 and BLEW AWAY T:V!!!! T1 BLEW away T:V! But the point is though BUGGY T2 sold it's pants off cuase it was at heart a KICKASS Tribes game! I think recently released and posted sales figures back me up here.
If anything this T:V debacles obscured the vision of Tribes and set it back for months, years maybe even killed it. I hope not. But I will NOT say that T:V was anywheres NEAR a decent Tribes game when it wasnt!
I will NOT say the Emperor wears clothes when The Emperor Wears No Clothes!
Wolfchylde
Veteran XV
And to think people expect us to feel sorry for the VUG people who may lose their jobs over this? 
Frankly VUG in general shouldnt publish games anymore. And I CANT GET THEM TO STOP SENDING ME THAT GODDAMN NEWSLETTER ABOUT UPCOMING TITLES...
OMFG do i wanna go punch someone's head in over in their "marketing" department... the LAST people that should EVER email me about a game is fucking VUG
Frankly VUG in general shouldnt publish games anymore. And I CANT GET THEM TO STOP SENDING ME THAT GODDAMN NEWSLETTER ABOUT UPCOMING TITLES...
OMFG do i wanna go punch someone's head in over in their "marketing" department... the LAST people that should EVER email me about a game is fucking VUG cryhavoc2112
Veteran X
They blew it. We knew it. I am sad to say I was one of the release day sales.
Oh well....back to War2003 mod for T2!
-=N=-Normantology
Oh well....back to War2003 mod for T2!
-=N=-Normantology
am i missing something?
when did garage games get their image restored and everyone start wanting tribes on that piece of shit cartoony no depth perception engine?
when did garage games get their image restored and everyone start wanting tribes on that piece of shit cartoony no depth perception engine?
SexyMuppet
Veteran X
Almost makes me sad I didn't buy the game.
It would have been 7801 copies.
It would have been 7801 copies.
All this bitching and arguing. If I may, I want to offer some insight and a parallel
I love Tribes. But I also like another game by the name of Doom 2. After Quake 1 + 2 came out, everyone thought that old school Doom deathmatch, the fast and furious type, was going to die forever.
But back a few years ago, id released the source code to the game. Because of the source code release and the source ports released, classic Doom today still has a very thriving community, spread between doomworld, newdoom and zdaemon. Even after the extremely lackbuster Doom 3 was released, the classic Doom community still goes on, and even gets new players.
The point behind this is that YOU HAVE THE BEST PART IN YOUR HANDS The Torque engine! It's there! As long as you have the source code to the origional engine, the Tribes community will NEVER die. I'm really looking forward to the new Starsiege game that seems to be in the works, and you all have the capability to make a souce port of Tribes1/2 that adds features while still keeping that old tribes style, what Tribes Vengance should have been.
Tribes Vengance failed for one reason or another. That's a given. But there seems to be so much doom and gloom. Just recognize what you're holding isn't really broken.
I love Tribes. But I also like another game by the name of Doom 2. After Quake 1 + 2 came out, everyone thought that old school Doom deathmatch, the fast and furious type, was going to die forever.
But back a few years ago, id released the source code to the game. Because of the source code release and the source ports released, classic Doom today still has a very thriving community, spread between doomworld, newdoom and zdaemon. Even after the extremely lackbuster Doom 3 was released, the classic Doom community still goes on, and even gets new players.
The point behind this is that YOU HAVE THE BEST PART IN YOUR HANDS The Torque engine! It's there! As long as you have the source code to the origional engine, the Tribes community will NEVER die. I'm really looking forward to the new Starsiege game that seems to be in the works, and you all have the capability to make a souce port of Tribes1/2 that adds features while still keeping that old tribes style, what Tribes Vengance should have been.
Tribes Vengance failed for one reason or another. That's a given. But there seems to be so much doom and gloom. Just recognize what you're holding isn't really broken.
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Got Haggis?
Veteran XX
i read a few days ago that VUG is giving the SWAT 4 community the run around about a patch now....SWAT 4 sold well (much much better than T:V...i saw it in the top 10 sales for several months), so the excuse that no patch will be made due to sales won't hold. I wonder what they will come up with next.
makes you wonder if its VUG or Irrational. I think Irrational should stay away from multiplayer games...its pretty obvious they dont have a good grasp on what makes a good multiplayer game.
makes you wonder if its VUG or Irrational. I think Irrational should stay away from multiplayer games...its pretty obvious they dont have a good grasp on what makes a good multiplayer game.