New Blizzard game
- Thread starter Got Haggis?
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I don't really think there's that much imbalance in the game currently.
Blizzard certainly collects detailed information about everything that gets played. The last things to be changed for the sake of 'balance' were only MC and UTH - both of which were not actually overpowered, but rather "unfun" to play against.
The other cards were minor stat adjustments which won't even prevent players from selecting other cards in their place. SSC, flame imp and AC will still very much be in everyone's deck.
I'd rather them focus on weekly bug fixes. It's kind of dumb that known exploits that cause a match to freeze were just left in the game for weeks/months. If this new Blood Imp/Stormwind Champ bug isn't hotfixed by tomorrow; there's going to be some seriously upset people.
Blizzard certainly collects detailed information about everything that gets played. The last things to be changed for the sake of 'balance' were only MC and UTH - both of which were not actually overpowered, but rather "unfun" to play against.
The other cards were minor stat adjustments which won't even prevent players from selecting other cards in their place. SSC, flame imp and AC will still very much be in everyone's deck.
I'd rather them focus on weekly bug fixes. It's kind of dumb that known exploits that cause a match to freeze were just left in the game for weeks/months. If this new Blood Imp/Stormwind Champ bug isn't hotfixed by tomorrow; there's going to be some seriously upset people.
Well win % for all classes in each division were all pretty even. Hunter actually had slightly above average win% against mage/rogue/druid which is why buzzard was changed to a 2/1 - so those classes could kill it with their hero abilities.
As for the stat changes to the other cards; the point of "balance" isn't to nerf something to the point where nobody plays them anymore. There's always going to be cards that are proven to get the most value for their cost. Nerfing something like Argent Commander would just make everyone pick the next best thing; and then that card would be in everyone's deck.
Questing Adventurer and Pint-sized summoner were pretty much in everyone's deck until they got nerfed: What did nerfing them into the ground do to help the current situation? Nothing.
At least these cards that are perceived as 'strong' are all neutral. Probably why classes are as balanced as they are right now. I'm betting that once Blizzard adds more cards to the game, they'll fuck up class balance. As the pool of cards grows, you'll probably see more class-specific cards in each deck.
Balance includes the introduction of sufficient counters to defeat something that you can predict. HaPpy is correct. The cards that you, yourself, listed on the other page are imbalanced in Constructed mode.
The point of balance is to keep variety and depth in the game. Then people won't rant about Constructed being predictable.
Morning Coffee Effort Post
Card Evaluation!
So how can you tell which cards are good, and which are bad?
As a general rule: A basic card that has no text, should have a Mana cost equal to (Attack+HP)/2. That is the 'Average' baseline.
An example would simply be a card with 3 Attack and 3 HP at a cost of 3 Mana. Or a 4 Mana cost card with 3 Attack and 5HP.
Very few cards are above this average, and the ones that are, are typically 'good' cards (for their cost). The reason why most cards are below average is because additional text on a card, usually comes at the cost of; Attack, Health, or more Mana.
Cards that grant stats to other minions are effectively above average because their Battlecry can be used in the calculation of their budget. If you play a Dark Iron Dwarf; you get a 4/4 for 4, but also grant +2 attack to another minion. Effectively, this card is a 6/4 for 4 Mana, which is well above average. Even if there were no minions to buff, you'd still get an average card. Shattered Sun Cleric and Defender of Argus are also amazing picks for this reason.
Cards that provide an aura or condition so long as they live are usually bad cards. Raid Leader is a 2/2 for 3 Mana, and gives all other minions +1 Attack. It can have above average value, but the minion itself dies incredibly easily, and really can't attack anything without dying. So this minion's best-case scenario is one where you already have a lot of minions on the board - if that's the case it's a "win more" card, and by that token; Any card would likely be just as good. If you're behind; being Stuck with a Raid Leader in your hand ensures you will stay behind.
Trading
As a general rule, you don't ever want to play a card without it costing your opponent a card in the end. Doing this causes you to fall behind in card advantage, and you'll soon notice your opponent has several cards in their hand, while you are down to just 1 or 2. Buff cards can make a single minion really strong. For example a Divine Spirit and Inner Fire can turn a 2/7 Snapjaw into a 14/14. But you've also invested 3 cards into 1 minion. If your opponent simply removes the Snapjaw at the cost of 1 card (let's say Assassinate), then you're effectively down 2 cards. You traded 3 of your cards for 1 of theirs.
Aside from always getting a 1 for 1 trade, or 2 of theirs for one of yours; you also need to consider the value of those cards. There is such a thing as "Trading Up" and "Trading Down".
So why is Chillwind Yeti a great minion on Turn 4? Well, it's a 4/5 minion. There is no neutral minion your opponent could have played on turn 3 that could trade into your Yeti 1 for 1. Actually King Mukla and Magma Rager both have 5 attack, but you don't see those cards a lot because they're pretty bad.
So you can play your Yeti without much fear of an immediate unfavorable trade. Your opponent would have to play a SSC, DID or DoA and buff the stats of something else.
Aside from there not being much from Turn 3 that threatens a Yeti on Turn 4; there isn't much on Turn 4 or Turn 5 that can kill it either. In fact, most Turn 4 and Turn 5 cards are 4/4 minions. This allows the Yeti to either kill the opponent's Turn 4 minion and still live... or kill their Turn 5. Either way, you have a very good chance to either; Trade evenly, trade 2 for 1, or trade up - and almost virtually no chance of Trading Down.
It's also worth mentioning that the Yeti's 4 Attack value means it can not be hit by Shadow Word: Pain&Death.
The ability to Trade Up and gain control of the board is why you'll see most people play 3/2 minions on Turn 2. The chance of having a 2/1 played on the first turn is pretty low, so a 3/2 minion on Turn 2 is pretty safe more times than not. This allows you to trade up into most minions played on Turn 3. Where as if you play a 2/3 on Turn two, you run a much lower chance to gain board advantage - and against any enrage minion on Turn 3 you're at a severe disadvantage.
The Turn 2 meta is what makes a Jungle panther a great minion as well. It's a 4/2 with stealth for 3 Mana. It can let you avoid the Turn two/three play, and Trade up with your opponent's Turn 4 play; leaving your turn 4 to face their turn 2 and/or 3, which could be a 2 for 1 in your favor.
There's a lot of factors that really skew this theorycraft; such as spells/AoE removal, but if you're just comparing minion to minion; the probability for success is larger with minions that trade better than the rest. You also can't predict what class you'll face, so it's tough to build around specific counters you may or may not face.
So when you're choosing cards:
Final note:
A lot of new players like Taunt cards because they believe it offers protection - They don't. Most Taunt cards are bad. Booty Bay Bodyguard? It's a 5/4 for 5 Mana; not only are the stats below average, but it's just going to die to most minions played on Turn 4, because most of those minions have 4 attack.
Players are going to trade minions to gain an advantage on the board. Paying the price in stats for the added effect of Taunting actually puts you at a disadvantage. Of the Neutral cards, Sen'Jin Shieldmasta is the only acceptable taunt minion for the cost. Fen Creeper is alright as well, but by Turn 5 or 6, it probably won't kill anything that costs more than 3 Mana. Defender of Argus can give you Taunt on minions that didn't suck to begin with, AND give them +1/+1, so the value of DoA blows any regular Taunt minion out of the water. Druid is a whole separate issue however. A lot of their taunt mechanics are quite good.
Taunt still serves a function, but it's pretty conditional. You typically want a taunt out if you have:
Card Evaluation!
So how can you tell which cards are good, and which are bad?
As a general rule: A basic card that has no text, should have a Mana cost equal to (Attack+HP)/2. That is the 'Average' baseline.
An example would simply be a card with 3 Attack and 3 HP at a cost of 3 Mana. Or a 4 Mana cost card with 3 Attack and 5HP.
Very few cards are above this average, and the ones that are, are typically 'good' cards (for their cost). The reason why most cards are below average is because additional text on a card, usually comes at the cost of; Attack, Health, or more Mana.
Cards that grant stats to other minions are effectively above average because their Battlecry can be used in the calculation of their budget. If you play a Dark Iron Dwarf; you get a 4/4 for 4, but also grant +2 attack to another minion. Effectively, this card is a 6/4 for 4 Mana, which is well above average. Even if there were no minions to buff, you'd still get an average card. Shattered Sun Cleric and Defender of Argus are also amazing picks for this reason.
Cards that provide an aura or condition so long as they live are usually bad cards. Raid Leader is a 2/2 for 3 Mana, and gives all other minions +1 Attack. It can have above average value, but the minion itself dies incredibly easily, and really can't attack anything without dying. So this minion's best-case scenario is one where you already have a lot of minions on the board - if that's the case it's a "win more" card, and by that token; Any card would likely be just as good. If you're behind; being Stuck with a Raid Leader in your hand ensures you will stay behind.
Trading
As a general rule, you don't ever want to play a card without it costing your opponent a card in the end. Doing this causes you to fall behind in card advantage, and you'll soon notice your opponent has several cards in their hand, while you are down to just 1 or 2. Buff cards can make a single minion really strong. For example a Divine Spirit and Inner Fire can turn a 2/7 Snapjaw into a 14/14. But you've also invested 3 cards into 1 minion. If your opponent simply removes the Snapjaw at the cost of 1 card (let's say Assassinate), then you're effectively down 2 cards. You traded 3 of your cards for 1 of theirs.
Aside from always getting a 1 for 1 trade, or 2 of theirs for one of yours; you also need to consider the value of those cards. There is such a thing as "Trading Up" and "Trading Down".
- Trading up is simply using your lower cost minion to remove their higher cost minion.
- Trading down is where you lose your higher cost to their lower cost.
So why is Chillwind Yeti a great minion on Turn 4? Well, it's a 4/5 minion. There is no neutral minion your opponent could have played on turn 3 that could trade into your Yeti 1 for 1. Actually King Mukla and Magma Rager both have 5 attack, but you don't see those cards a lot because they're pretty bad.
So you can play your Yeti without much fear of an immediate unfavorable trade. Your opponent would have to play a SSC, DID or DoA and buff the stats of something else.
Aside from there not being much from Turn 3 that threatens a Yeti on Turn 4; there isn't much on Turn 4 or Turn 5 that can kill it either. In fact, most Turn 4 and Turn 5 cards are 4/4 minions. This allows the Yeti to either kill the opponent's Turn 4 minion and still live... or kill their Turn 5. Either way, you have a very good chance to either; Trade evenly, trade 2 for 1, or trade up - and almost virtually no chance of Trading Down.
It's also worth mentioning that the Yeti's 4 Attack value means it can not be hit by Shadow Word: Pain&Death.
The ability to Trade Up and gain control of the board is why you'll see most people play 3/2 minions on Turn 2. The chance of having a 2/1 played on the first turn is pretty low, so a 3/2 minion on Turn 2 is pretty safe more times than not. This allows you to trade up into most minions played on Turn 3. Where as if you play a 2/3 on Turn two, you run a much lower chance to gain board advantage - and against any enrage minion on Turn 3 you're at a severe disadvantage.
The Turn 2 meta is what makes a Jungle panther a great minion as well. It's a 4/2 with stealth for 3 Mana. It can let you avoid the Turn two/three play, and Trade up with your opponent's Turn 4 play; leaving your turn 4 to face their turn 2 and/or 3, which could be a 2 for 1 in your favor.
There's a lot of factors that really skew this theorycraft; such as spells/AoE removal, but if you're just comparing minion to minion; the probability for success is larger with minions that trade better than the rest. You also can't predict what class you'll face, so it's tough to build around specific counters you may or may not face.
So when you're choosing cards:
- Does the cost justify the stats?
- Will the minion immediately die to the minion that was played on the previous turn?
- Can I trade up or trade 2 for 1 with this minion?
Final note:
A lot of new players like Taunt cards because they believe it offers protection - They don't. Most Taunt cards are bad. Booty Bay Bodyguard? It's a 5/4 for 5 Mana; not only are the stats below average, but it's just going to die to most minions played on Turn 4, because most of those minions have 4 attack.
Players are going to trade minions to gain an advantage on the board. Paying the price in stats for the added effect of Taunting actually puts you at a disadvantage. Of the Neutral cards, Sen'Jin Shieldmasta is the only acceptable taunt minion for the cost. Fen Creeper is alright as well, but by Turn 5 or 6, it probably won't kill anything that costs more than 3 Mana. Defender of Argus can give you Taunt on minions that didn't suck to begin with, AND give them +1/+1, so the value of DoA blows any regular Taunt minion out of the water. Druid is a whole separate issue however. A lot of their taunt mechanics are quite good.
Taunt still serves a function, but it's pretty conditional. You typically want a taunt out if you have:
- A minion that can draw cards (cult master/buzzard/etc)
- A minion with an on-turn effect (demolisher/weaponsmith/etc)
- Scale in damage (frothing berzerker/flesheating ghoul/mana wyrm)
- An opponent equips a weapon
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Is there a card game where this actually occurs? I didn't play MTG, but I hear the same thing runs rampant in that game as well; you typically have a top tier selection of cards that the majority of players use. As well as players commonly 'net decking' the tournament decks built by the better players in the community. There's no variety there either.
I think predictability and imbalance are two different things. It happens in any competitive game. Theory crafters find the most efficient way to do things, and that's just how things are done. If it get's nerfed, then something else becomes the most efficient way to do things. It happens in StarCraft. It happens in WoW; Despite talent trees offering a wide variety in specing your toon, raiders and PvPers pretty much had to shoehorn their charaters into the current meta. Players that had bullshit specs/enchants/gems were told to get their shit together if they wanted that raid spot.
I agree variety is really cool to have, but is it possible with Hearthstone? There is no current means to side-deck and build counters to your opponent. You have to build a deck that is universally strong against most things you encounter because once you're in a match, there's nothing you can change.
when they add new cards they should just follow the cost/reward ratio rule of cards more strictly. i still see some imbalances regarding those 2 creatures for 1 cards... typically theyre balanced like the dragon mechanic 2/4 + 2/1 for 4 or 5/5 for 4 vs defias ringleader at 2/2 + 2/1 for 2 or 4/3 for 2 which is a bit op
I was watching Reckful play Warrior today with 2 One Turn Kill (OTK) strats in 1 deck. It was some next level shit I've never seen before.
He had the Warsong Commander > Molten Giant > Brewmaster going...
As well as the Pyromancer > Commanding shout > Frothing Berzerker > 0 to 1 Mana spells
It was pretty gross to see the amount of damage he could do in 1 turn (when he lived long enough to pull it off)
He had the Warsong Commander > Molten Giant > Brewmaster going...
As well as the Pyromancer > Commanding shout > Frothing Berzerker > 0 to 1 Mana spells
It was pretty gross to see the amount of damage he could do in 1 turn (when he lived long enough to pull it off)