[T:V] Talk to me about the TR2-ish gametype

My response has three brief parts.

First, my sense is you have very limited resources. Limited resources requires that you focus your attention on a discrete number of gametypes (say 5-6 max). Realistically, this suggests that you prioritize the single-player campaign, CTF, and TRV. If the community is given the tools to extend the gametypes, this won't be a huge problem.

I would suggest that the three other gametypes should be Hunters, DM, and anything else (except Team Hunters which sux sux sux). My intuition is that Hunters and DM don't require a huge amount of incremental coding since you can recycle maps with little or no editing and the "gameplay changes" are pretty straightforward.

Second, putting all your eggs in one basket is rarely a good approach. Your studio is already making a big bet on an unproven single-player campaign. To hedge against the single-player being rejected/hated, it would be prudent to make CTF and TRV own. You guys are well-equipped to make sure this happens (tremendous gaming experience, tremendous knowledge of Tribes and the likes/dislikes of the Tribes community etc.).

Third, check your gut. Putting all your eggs in one basket is ok if you're sure that its the RIGHT basket. If you have conviction that the single-player campaign owns and CTF owns, maybe that is enough. For selfish reasons, I would like to see TRV and Hunters be included, however, as I have at least as much fun playing them as I do CTF. Also, to be honest, I may or may not play the single player. So again for selfish reasons, I don't care about single-player other than I hope it draws new players into the game.
 
ZenTseTse said:
... that's akin to the debates around old school skiing. it evolved on its own... but it still has to be within reach and FUN for the newbies. tribes2, imho, successfully opened that up to make tribes movement more accessible and more popular. anybody saying it should be "harder" to ski shouldnt be in game development...
Click to expand...
You're right, and you're wrong. Actually I think you're in complete agreement with us here. We believe that Skiing needs to be very easy to learn, but impossible to master.

Skiing over to the enemy base: easy.

Skiing quickly thru trees: moderate.

Skiing quickly thru two heavy defenders that you disked out of the way and snagging the flag: hard.

Skiing backward thru some trees with the flag while fighting off chasers: unnatural.

But that first part better be very easy.
 
Zoolooman said:
I really don't think sportsy gametypes will ever become as popular as the six types I've described above. I'm being frank here. I *love* Team Rabbit gametypes, but I feel they will never take off like other FPS gametypes will. The reason is because sportsy gametypes almost always go against what people want to do when playing FPS games: kill people.
Click to expand...
That may be part of it, but I also think that they are limited by the fact that their very design requires close teamwork. That makes it very hard to start playing. If you move into a new neighborhood, and go down to the local hoops court, you're an outsider and it's hard to get involved in a game. You either need to be very good already, or willing to suck for a long time to become part of the in crowd. Sports games are like that, only less polite.

Another way to put this (which is sure to create some bitching and moaning): Cowboys should be able, at some level, to succeed in pubs.
 
That is an excellent point Thrax and is consistent with TR2's experience on at least two levels.

One: TR2 had a severe "asshole" problem early in its life. Once people realized this was hurting the community, people toned their tudes down.

Two: Lots of good T2 CTF players quit because they got owned hard by guys whose skill they didn't respect. Without thinking hard at all, I can recall names of 10 VERY good CTF players that got frustrated because they were severely outclassed by "no-name" players who were very good at TR2. All of these players ultimately quit the game.


One thing that helps lower the learning curve are tutorials and tips that flash on screen upon loading a map. TR2 implemented things like this late in its life and they did seem to help. This effort was like spitting into the wind, however, as TR2 was under attack from several directions.
 
ZenTseTse said:
you also think it is like dm... so... whatever.
Click to expand...
no, I think its not like DM (which is UT's strength), thats why its not any fun.

Its the only game mod I can think of where its *not* fun to get the ball because you lose your gun and get smeared most of the time. It becomes a game of who can abuse the system the best.
 
Last edited:
So I finally got around to registering in tw, mostly so I could give my input here.

I realize this has been horribly overdone already, but I'd like to say why I think tr2 died.

I normally don't play computer games very much during the summer and didn't start playing tr2 until November, when the league was just starting up. I was lazy at the time and never really bothered to look up the specifics of the rules, and I was weary of getting bitched out because I heard ever so much about the elitest attitude. But I had also heard it was a great game type. It only took me a couple of maps to figure out the basic idea of how to play. I never was called a noob when I first started, this was not because I didn't suck, but because I grasped the idea of what was going on in the game. Later when I became much better I in turn became one who would critique the new players. What I realized is that tr2 is a very social game type. Unlike pubbing ctf, where you can do whatever you want and never really have to listen to what other people say, TR2 requires people to actively observe what other people are doing. New players were critized not because they sucked skillwise, but because they failed to understand the basics of being a smart player and never would respond to chat.

There still were the players who bashed others for sucking, but it was just certain players and not the community as a whole who did this. I cannot speak for how this was at the beginning, since I didn't join until later. So I don't think it was really the attitude's that caused tr2 to die.

What I think was the main reason that caused tr2 to die was the fact that tr2 used a different physics style than classic. In all practical sense it won't make a terrible difference if a player keeps shifting back and forth between two different styles of physics. But remember that there was large amounts of hatred for the previous physics styles before classic. People developed the mentality that in order to get better they must play using the comp physics style, anything else would be a waste of time. During the 6v6 league/ladder the best players of ctf/tr2 had nothing to do with each other. This is not true with ctf, arena or duel, where many of the best players will play on all those ladders. In some senses arena is as different from ctf as tr2 is (don't kill me for saything this). Arena concentrates on the killing part of ctf, while tr2 concentrates on the flag part of ctf. Yet the arena community is able to survive, as it can leach off of the ctf without any great harm. Lost Angel does have a good point in the difference of the physics, but trying to kill tr2 because of it isn't helpful. So I think that if there will be a TR:V it will need to have the same physics style as ctf. That way the TR:V pub community can use players from ctf comp without alienating them.
 
Thrax Panda said:
That may be part of it, but I also think that they are limited by the fact that their very design requires close teamwork. That makes it very hard to start playing. If you move into a new neighborhood, and go down to the local hoops court, you're an outsider and it's hard to get involved in a game. You either need to be very good already, or willing to suck for a long time to become part of the in crowd. Sports games are like that, only less polite.

Another way to put this (which is sure to create some bitching and moaning): Cowboys should be able, at some level, to succeed in pubs.
Click to expand...

yep.
 
ZenTseTse said:
as ive said before, i see a lot of the same whiners who said tribes2 was "too slow, too big, too blah blah blah" running off to play BF42, RTCW, etc.
Click to expand...

that's because those "whiners" played tribes 2 expecting a fast paced adrenaline rush of a game. They didn't get that and so they got pissed.

When they played bf1942, a war game with no jetpacks, no extra movement capabilities, they knew it was gonna be slower than tribes from the beginning, and they accepted that.
 
Last edited:
Flatscan said:
Invic,

While I agree map design matters, ultimately people will do what's rewarded. If passing isn't rewarded, it won't be a focus and that portion of the game (the RICHEST portion imo) will go undeveloped.

For me, passing is what makes TR insanely fun. I honestly don't care much about scoring goals - they never seemed THAT skillful to me. High point passing was a completely different story, however. Nothing thrilled me like catching/making 60+ point passes. The thing is, there was NO incentive to go for passes of that difficulty level in a competitive game. They were too risky.

Consider your own experience in Reborn: you had some of the best passing talent in TR2 on your team but you guys backed off hard passes. Why? Because you got NOTHING for them. While I know a ton of other issues were weighing on Reborn and every other TR2 team around this time, I'm sure the lack of reward impacted the enthusiasm level of some of your key players.

As you acknowledge, the following is an old argument. Goal stacking never bothered me because you could EASILY beat it by taking advantage of creativity. Sadly, people didn't figure this out for far too long because they didn't understand how creativity worked. Goal stacking would be considerably less viable than it was if teams could earn "skill points" for repetitive high point passes in addition to "creativity points."

While I think the goal box should be coded such that defenders are "bounced" off the goal if too many got in the crease for pub play, I would prefer that this feature be turned off in competitive play. This would force teams to be able to both pass and shoot.
Click to expand...

I really have no idea what you are talking about with regards to Reborn. We never made any conscious decisions with regards to what kind of passes to make. Reborn was never really a team but that's besides the point. My point is that whether or not you believe it passing doesn't have to be directly rewarded for it to be essential. Like I said in my previous post, soccer and basketball are great examples. You aren't rewarded AT ALL for passes in both sports, however, it is necessary to achieve the final goal. This will probably be my final post in this thread just because you and I both know this argument will never end. It is my opinion that it would be better if passing was made necessary indirectly. However, I think Tr3(TrV w.e you want to call it) is in good hands and I am looking forward to playing it however it is scored.
 
Rabid Poop said:
that's because those "whiners" played tribes 2 expecting a fast paced adrenaline rush of a game. They didn't get that and so they got pissed.

When they played bf1942, a war game with no jetpacks, no extra movement capabilities, they knew it was gonna be slower than tribes from the beginning, and they accepted that.
Click to expand...

agreed. it was indeed a matter of expectations. tribes2 was what i expected... i loved it. i think that most who bought tribes2 felt that way. i just played some more last night... and i love it again. :D

so, to come full circle... the "expectations" issue is EXACTLY what T:V has to contend with. this SMALL MINORITY who still think tribes2 "failed" on gameplay and as a sequel... are even more committed to seeing what they originally expected. ooops.

meanwhile, i think 9/10 gamers will expect something huge and warfare-ish again (katabotic-style gameplay). imo, tribes2 covers the entire range quite effectively.

TV has to market itself very carefully in order to CLEARLY show how it covers this range and meets online gaming expectations.

likewise, the single player aspect can show a compelling story/experience and convey that sense of freedom that tribes really is at its heart.
 
Currently (as absolute mentioned) the game is played 3v3, player roles disabled and with one-timers being the only way to score.

The community is actually GROWING. The biggest complaints we are getting is "there is too much dm'ing".

My next project will be a system to reduce damage to players that are nowhere near the flag or enemy goal. If we reduce the dm'ing complaints I think we will have a winner.

Teams are still doing some fantastic plays because hard passing is necessary to keep posession.

TR2 is a beautiful game that really utilizes jetting and skiing. Which to me are the fundamentals of any tribes game.
 
Last edited:
Based on emperical evidence (from quake to CS to Tribes) focus MOST of your attention on the MOD community. That is if you want to meet the requirements you listed earlier.

Seriously, what online game isn't the spawn of some wacked MOD (quake ctf = tribes, CS = rocket arena, team fortress classic = quake tf, Savage = NS, etc etc etc).

and I'm talking about modifications, not just mutators.
 
Back
Top