Excessive or Neccesary Force? You decide

Snaps

Veteran X
Most police brutality threads seem to be pretty one sided, but I'm interested in what the consensus of tdub is on this one. I personally don't think he was trying to hit the officer.



The Georgia Bureau of Investigation interviewed many witnesses after the police shooting of Justin Elmore, but the account provided by an 8-year-old girl seemed most closely to mirror what was seen in police car videos.

The child's statement was in the agency's investigative report shared Tuesday with the Richmond County grand jury. The jury did not indict two sheriff deputies for any criminal charge.

The report was released Wednesday through an Open Records request. It reveals both Deputies Jose Rivera Ortiz and Michael Hodge fired their weapons at Mr. Elmore the afternoon of Dec. 14. The deputies fired eight times total. Mr. Elmore, 23, was shot once in the head.

District Attorney Ashley Wright said the bullets were too misshapen for any confirmable ballistic comparison, but from the angle of the shot and the position of the officers, it is logical to believe Deputy Ortiz fired the fatal shot.

Two of the bullets fired by the officers pierced the front door and window of the apartment where the 8-year-old lived with her parents and baby brother. When the shooting began, the child was a few yards from her front door.

Three days later she told GBI agents that she saw the police had an SUV pulled over on Carver Drive. She saw the vehicle back up and hit the bumper of a sheriff's car, according to her statement. As the SUV pulled forward and jumped the curb, the officers started shooting, she told the GBI agents.

Deputies Ortiz and Hodge also told GBI agents that they shot at the SUV when the driver accelerated forward and jumped the curb.

Deputy Ortiz, who was in front of the SUV, told the GBI that he thought the driver was going to run him over. He fired at the car as he tried to get out of its path, he said. Deputy Hodge, who was approaching the SUV from the rear, said he fired when he saw the vehicle headed toward the grass area where he saw Deputy Ortiz.

The deputies wanted to stop the SUV because of a tip from a confidential informant. Deputy Hodge told the GBI agents he got a call from a regular informant that afternoon.

The informant told GBI agents that he had had contact that day with the driver of a newer model, black SUV Suburban with tinted windows. Four men were in the car, as were guns and marijuana, the informant said.

Mr. Elmore was driving a black Suburban with deeply tinted windows and a paper tag. After the shooting, officers discovered Mr. Elmore was alone in the vehicle with just more than 15 grams of marijuana and 30 rounds of ammunition, according to the GBI report.

Ms. Wright said Wednesday that the SUV belonged to Mr. Elmore's brother who had bought it two days before the shooting.

The investigation didn't reveal who might have been with Mr. Elmore before the shooting. There is a 20- to 30-minute time lapse between when the informant saw Mr. Elmore and when he called Deputy Hodge, the informant said.

The GBI report didn't address why Mr. Elmore might have been in the Cherry Tree Crossing public housing complex the afternoon he was shot. The agents later collected his clothing, $825 in cash, and items such as lip balm, a cell phone and a folding knife.

The GBI was called in to take over the investigation of the shooting. When agents arrived at the scene about an hour later, a large crowd had gathered. Some people were throwing rocks, bottles and bricks at the officers, the GBI report reads.

The GBI agents talked with about 19 potential witnesses over the next few days. Most only saw what happened after the shots were fired.

Two women who told GBI agents they were eyewitnesses gave disturbing accounts that are contradicted by the videos.

One woman told agents she was sitting on her front porch when Mr. Elmore was pulled over right in front of her apartment. She said Mr. Elmore was boxed in by the patrol cars and never moved before the officers started shooting.

A second woman who was in the convenience store directly across from the spot where the SUV came to rest told agents that Deputies Ortiz and Hodges repeatedly shot at the SUV after it came to a stop and that the officers shot two people in the SUV.
 
A second woman who was in the convenience store directly across from the spot where the SUV came to rest told agents that Deputies Ortiz and Hodges repeatedly shot at the SUV after it came to a stop and that the officers shot two people in the SUV.

:lol:

That cop is clearly in front of the car and the car accelerated. Definitely an instinctive reaction to think he's trying to run him over. I'd file this under necessary force.
 
excessive. he did not intend to inflict harm on an officer--he clearly tried to drive around them. But i think it was necessary at first to draw their weapons and even to open fire at first. once the guy got around them and stopped the vehicle it's way too excessive because he's not threatening them. can't see that from the angles though.
 
:lol:

That cop is clearly in front of the car and the car accelerated. Definitely an instinctive reaction to think he's trying to run him over. I'd file this under necessary force.

You continue firing in a neighborhood even after he clearly drives around the guy? I don't know. It's a tough job. I am usually on the side of cops. Just seems a bit excessive. I won't lose sleep over it though.
 
I believe the whole concept of a policeman using deadly force any time they perceive a threat to themselves is wrong. I believe they assume a certain risk to protect other lives more than their own.
 
I believe the whole concept of a policeman using deadly force any time they perceive a threat to themselves is wrong. I believe they assume a certain risk to protect other lives more than their own.

theyre people too, not kamikazes
 
Excessive, the guy was clearly trying to go around him

while the world is probably a better place without this person, it certainly appears that he was not trying to run over the cop. hard to put myself in the cop's shoes though. I don't necessarily disbelieve that the cop thought his life was in danger. hindsight and what not.
 
theyre people too, not kamikazes

Of course, and I'm sympathetic to the burdens of the job.

But what happened to jumping out of the way and shooting out the tires.

Or not standing in the path of a vehicle that hasn't been secured in the first place.

Why is it a full magazine to the head or chest?
 
I say Fully Justified. He was completely stopped with a squad car directly in front of him and behind. He made the conscious decision to put the SUV into reverse and back up, then put it into drive and drive around the blocking squad car attempting to flee. It does appear that he saw the police officer and tried to avoid hitting him, but that's rather irrelevant at that time scale and short distance involved.

He probably would have lived if he'd never tried to flee to begin with.

He probably would have lived if he'd slammed on his brakes when he saw a police officer in front of him, gun drawn.

I feel sorry for the cops that had to deal with the trauma of killing someone.
 
I think it was neccesary...

there is absolutely no excuse for his actions (the driver's) when that many cops come after you. The only reason you would act that way is if you had drugs, guns, or were wanted for something.

The cops know that...

So when you act the way that drive acted, then they only have so many thoughts on it...

is he trying to run me over?
is the car of people with guns that are going to shoot us/just shot someone/going to shoot someone?

those are two examples...

i don't see where the cops did anything wrong. and this goes to show why you stop when the fucking cops ask you to stop. if they're in the wrong, then you'll have your day in court if it gets that far.

i've had to deal with similair situation, not quite as ghetto as this one. and instead of getting shot, i won in court.
 
You continue firing in a neighborhood even after he clearly drives around the guy? I don't know. It's a tough job. I am usually on the side of cops. Just seems a bit excessive. I won't lose sleep over it though.

Good point, I agree with you there.

Although if you've ever watched some of those 'in the line of fire' shows, there's 1 or 2 where a cop was almost intentionally run over and the cop runs down the road after the car firing.
 
Why is it a full magazine to the head or chest?

My dad trained me how to shoot (he's a retired law enforcement officer).

Him and his buddy trained me (and my fiance), and did it the same way they do at work.

Here's what he told me:
"you fire when there is a threat to you, or other people. you fire to stop that threat, and fire until the threat is stopped. you stop firing once the threat has stopped. when you shoot, you aim for center mass".

so that answers your 'why the full clip' question - they fire until whatever the reason for them firing stops.

it answers your 'why head/chest' question - they aim for the chest, if they hit the head its not by design, but just part of the process.

in his words you 'never shoot to kill, never shoot to injur, never shoot to 'warn'. you shoot to stop an agressive act, and you always aim center mass'.

i'm sure some individuals have a different take, but that is how they are trained.
 
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Fleeing a police officer is not a capital offense

Resisting Arrest is not a capital offense

Possesion of Weapons and Drugs are not capital offenses

Using poor judgement is not a capital offense.

Assault on a police officer is not a capital offense.

Some County Mountie playing Judge Dredd should be.
 
You continue firing in a neighborhood even after he clearly drives around the guy? I don't know. It's a tough job. I am usually on the side of cops. Just seems a bit excessive. I won't lose sleep over it though.

i question the amount of shots too - not out excesive vs neccesary, but out of stupidity.

as my dad trained me, you're supose to consider evertyhing between you and the target, the target, and anything behind the target. cops are trained that way (as are most people with any decent gun training). so i would say its pretty stupid to fire that many shots when you are in a neighborhood, especially at a moving target, while you yourself are moving.

however... see my post above...
 
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