[official] the ethanol thread

Falhawk

Veteran XX
we don't need 4 threads on the homepage all dancing around it. Lets try to keep it all in one thread (how about this one)

it takes about 11 acres of land to grow enough corn to turn into ethanol to power a single car for 10,000 miles.

That same amount of land would feed seven people.

It also takes a heck of a lot of corn to produce very much ethanol.

11 Acres = One Year’ s Fuel

Pimentel, who chaired a U.S. Department of Energy committee that looked into ethanol several years ago, says relying on corn for our future energy needs would devastate the nation's food production.

It takes 11 acres to grow enough corn to fuel one automobile with ethanol for 10,000 miles, or about a year's driving, Pimentel says. That's the amount of land needed to feed seven persons for the same period of time.

And if we decided to power all of our automobiles with ethanol, we would need to cover 97 percent of our land with corn, he adds.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=99487&page=2
 
From the Peak Oil Site said:
Biofuels such as biodiesel, ethanol, methanol etc. are great, but only in small doses. Biofuels are all grown with massive fossil fuel inputs (pesticides and fertilizers) and suffer from horribly low, sometimes negative, EROEIs. The production of ethanol, for instance, requires six units of energy to produce just one. That means it consumes more energy than it produces and thus will only serve to compound our energy deficit.

In addition, there is the problem of where to grow the stuff, as we are rapidly running out of arable land on which to grow food, let alone fuel. This is no small problem as the amount of land it takes to grow even a small amount of biofuel is quite staggering. As journalist Lee Dye points out in a July 2004 article entitled "Old Policies Make Shift From Foreign Oil Tough:"

. . . relying on corn for our future energy needs would
devastate the nation's food production. It takes 11 acres to
grow enough corn to fuel one automobile with ethanol for
10,000 miles, or about a year's driving, Pimentel says. That's
the amount of land needed to feed seven persons for the
same period of time.

And if we decided to power all of our automobiles with
ethanol, we would need to cover 97 percent of our land with
corn, he adds.

Biodiesel is considerably better than ethanol, (and probably the best of the biofuels) but with an EROEI of three, it still doesn't compare to oil, which has had an EROEI of about 30.

While any significant attempt to switch to biofuels will work out great for giant agribusiness companies (political campaign contributors) such as Archer Daniels Midland, ConAgra, and Monsanto, it won't do much to solve a permanent energy crisis for you.

The ghoulish reality is that if we wanted to replace even a small part of our oil supply with farm grown biofuels, we would need to turn most of Africa into a giant biofuel farm, an idea that is currently gaining traction in some circles. Obviously many Africans - who are already starving - would not take kindly to us appropriating the land they use to grow their food to grow our fuel. As journalist George Monbiot points out, such an endeavor would be a humanitarian disaster.

Some folks are doing research into alternatives to soybeans such as biodiesel producing pools of algae. As with every other project that promises to "replace all petroleum fuels," this project has yet to produce a single drop of commercially available fuel. This hasn't prevented many of its most vocal proponents from insisting that algae grown biodiesel will solve our energy problems. The same is true for other, equally ambitious plans such as using recycled farm waste, switchgrass, etc. These projects all look great on paper or in the laboratory. Some of them may even end up providing a small amount of commercially available energy at some undetermined point in the future. However, in the context of our colossal demand for petroleum and the small amount of time we have remaining before the peak, these projects can't be expected to be more than a "drop in the bucket."

Tragically, many well-meaing people attempting to develop solutions don't even understand this. As Dr. Ted Trainer explains in a recent article on the thermodynamic limitations of biomass fuels:

This is why I do not believe consumer-capitalist society can
save itself. Not even its "intellectual" classes or green
leadership give any sign that this society has the wit or the
will to even think about the basic situation we are in. As the
above figures make clear, the situation cannot be solved
without huge reduction in the volume of production and
consumption going on.

The current craze surrounding biodiesel is a good example of what Dr. Trainer is talking about. While folks who have converted their personal vehicles to run on vegetable oil should certainly be given credit for their noble attempts at reducing our reliance on petroleum, the long-term viability of their efforts is questionable at best. Once our system of food production collapses due to the effects of Peak Oil, vegetable oil will likely become far too precious/expensive a commodity to be burned as transportation fuel for anybody but the super-rich. As James Kunstler points out in an April 2005 update to his blog "Cluster Fuck Nation", many biodiesel enthusiasts are dangerously clueless as to this reality:

Over in Vermont last week, I ran into a gang of biodiesel
enthusiasts. They were earnest, forward-looking guys who
would like to do some good for their country. But their
expectations struck me as fairly crazy, and in a way typical
of the bad thinking at all levels of our society these days.

For instance, I asked if it had ever occurred to them that
biodiesel crops would have to compete for farmland that
would be needed otherwise to grow feed crops for working
animals. No, it hadn't. (And it seemed like a far-out
suggestion to them.) Their expectation seemed to be that
the future would run a lot like the present, that bio-diesel
was just another ingenious, innovative, high-tech module
that we can "drop into" our existing system in place of the
previous, obsolete module of regular oil.

Kunstler goes on to explain that when policies or living/working arrangements are set up around such unexamined expectations, the result is usually a dangerous deepening of our reliance on cheap energy and "easy motoring."

Biodiesel advocates can get downright nasty when somebody points out any of the above described limitations of their favorite fuel. For instance, in a December 2005 article entitled, "The Most Destructive Crop on Earth No Solution to the Energy Crisis," well known progressive journalist George Monbiot, recounted his experiences attempting to point out the limits of biodiesel:

The last time I drew attention to the hazards of making
diesel fuel from vegetable oils, I received as much abuse as
I have ever been sent for my stance on the Iraq war. The
biodiesel missionaries, I discovered, are as vociferous in
their denial as the executives of Exxon.

If biofuels such as biodiesel and ethanol are such poor substitutes for oil, why then do you hear about them so much? The answer becomes obvious once you follow the money: the vast majority of the biofuels produced in this country are (as mentioned earlier) produced by giant agribusiness conglomerates such as Archer Daneiles Midland. Investigative reporter Mike Ruppert points out:

Archer Daniels Midland laughs all the way to the bank. With a
price to earnings (P/E) ratio of 17:1, every dollar of net
profit thrown into their coffers by politicians or investment
advisors selling the snake oil of alternative fuels generates
$17 in stock value which ADM will happily sell off before all
markets succumb to Peak Oil. That $17 came out of your
pocket whether you invested or not.
 
Fal, you don't run on strict ethanol only. You run on a gasoline/ethanol fuel mixture. All one has to do is ensure that the cost of combining those fuels into one grade does not make the final cost for consumers higher than strict gasoline.

The idea is that you use some ethanol, which is cheap, mixed with gasoline to power your vehicle. It drives the cost of fuel down because gas demand is lowered.
 
do you have any info about biodiesel? I would like to compare biodiesel to ethanol, but I'm not sure where to get the info about biodiesel....maybe http://www.biodiesel.org

of course if you make biodiesel mainly from soybean oil, you will run into the same problems as ethanol. I think that biodiesel is a great alternative though - even though it requires a diesel engine. Modern diesels are excellent engines - there is no 'slow acceleration' like many people think there is....

edit: damn you're quick

and I think Brazil is moving to a 100% ethanol based fuel
 
Icey said:
Fal, you don't run on strict ethanol only. You run on a gasoline/ethanol fuel mixture. All one has to do is ensure that the cost of combining those fuels into one grade does not make the final cost for consumers higher than strict gasoline.

The idea is that you use some ethanol, which is cheap, mixed with gasoline to power your vehicle. It drives the cost of fuel down because gas demand is lowered.

heh I know that ethanol is mixed with regular fuel.
 
You can use sugarcane instead, in which case you get double the yield per acre. This is what brazil does. You just have to grow it somewhere else or import it.

The energy you get out of sugarcane is 8 times the energy it costs to make it. It's a pretty sweet deal.
 
Got Haggis? said:
do you have any info about biodiesel? I would like to compare biodiesel to ethanol, but I'm not sure where to get the info about biodiesel....maybe http://www.biodiesel.org

of course if you make biodiesel mainly from soybean oil, you will run into the same problems as ethanol. I think that biodiesel is a great alternative though - even though it requires a diesel engine. Modern diesels are excellent engines - there is no 'slow acceleration' like many people think there is....

There are a number of different things that can be used to make biodiesel

The generally agreed upon EROI is around 3 meaning that the fuel yields 3x the amount of power required to make it. That is a good thing.

The bad thing is that oil has an EROI of like 30.

http://www.biofuels.coop/archive/eroei.php

The other problem is that right now vegetable oil seems like a neato fuel because we're reusing it from chinese restaurants or mcdonalds, but what about when it becomes a viable fuel source? You think it is going to be cheap?

http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html
http://www.energybulletin.net/5261.html
 
diesel rocks the shit out of gas

I'd love it if everything became diesel, but the odds of that are pretty low since everyone's a goddamned retard about things like that
 
I think the key is to provide alternatives. Not completely switch. We have reached a point of continuously buying time to allow for technology to come save our ass.

I'm in the "We can't buy enough time anymore" category. In the next 10-20 years the shit is really going to hit the fan. I'm just glad I live in one of the largest countries in the world and we still only have ~350k people.

Think about china and india....holy hell shit storm.
 
Icey said:
But what you're using as evidence is an assumption that vehicles will run on strictly ethanol.

Then take the 97% he purported and scale it down based on E85

it still is a significant amount of land needed.
 
You also get about as much energy out of corn ethanol as it takes to make it (as I said, you get 8 times the energy out of sugarcane ethanol as it takes to make it). This is pretty silly to me. We might as well drive electric cars, which (I'm assuming) use just as much energy as they take in from the outside.
 
Falhawk said:
Then take the 97% he purported and scale it down based on E85

it still is a significant amount of land needed.
True enough, but even if a fifth of our nation's cars switched to E85, we'd substantially reduce gas demand and lower prices precipitously.
 
hardluck said:
I think the key is to provide alternatives. Not completely switch. We have reached a point of continuously buying time to allow for technology to come save our ass.

I'm in the "We can't buy enough time anymore" category. In the next 10-20 years the shit is really going to hit the fan. I'm just glad I live in one of the largest countries in the world and we still only have ~350k people.

Think about china and india....holy hell shit storm.

the problem is though our entire economy is so married to oil nobody knows where you'd begin.

Oil is used for _everything_

pesticides (used in farming for corn etc)
capitol equipment (tractors, shipping)
etc
 
yea ethanol really doesn't sound like a great alternative. It sounds like an alternative...and one that should still be pursued...but not good enough to be pressing right now. But I wouldn't expect anything monumental from Gdub.
 
Icey said:
True enough, but even if a fifth of our nation's cars switched to E85, we'd substantially reduce gas demand and lower prices precipitously.

What would be a realistic timeframe that you think a 1/5 of our nation would switch to cars that ran E85?

This would of course include gas stations that provided it

(let alone the production)
 
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