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MC Hamster
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Old
481 - 10-27-2020, 01:50
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Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
As for the Cambrian explosion, Darwin himself said it was quite troublesome towards his theory, and may end up thwarting it altogether. For me, looking at the explosion, it just doesn't seem to line up with what he was proposing. All those fossils, fully formed to completion appearing so suddenly? If evolution is a slow process, where did they come from? I'm not sold on Darwin's theory yet. I'd like scientists to investigate further and learn more. I think more discoveries will be made that will shine more light on it all. Until then I just remain skeptical and listen to countless people insult me. That's fine.
Let's not forget that although it is referred to as an explosion, it's still something that took place over millions of years. It's very sudden in terms of what came before, but I could imagine that in a world full of herbivores, that the advent of even a single species which could scavenge, and eventually one to predate on others would have completely devastating consequences. An ecosystem which has been basically static is suddenly disrupted, and from the ashes the handful of survivors carve out new niches for themselves. A reduced gene pool increases what's effectively in-breeding and mutations. New environments are opened up, new behaviours develop, and there is a sudden arms race between species which adapt or perish. Like I said, I'm by no means an expert on the field, but I know that there's been a lot of time passed and a lot of research done since Darwin was published.

As far as Intelligent Design/Creation Science.... I think it's an answer looking for a question and I find it a despicable attempt by religious organisations to sneak their teachings through a back-door with dogma disguised as rational science. "It must have had something behind it which we cannot ever comprehend" is an abject antithesis of scientific methodology and should be treated with the contempt it gets. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing designed specifically to recruit children with pseudoscience in drag, and it's one of those institutional religious pieces I find genuinely distasteful.
 
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MC Hamster
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Old
482 - 10-27-2020, 02:09
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Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
Dude "Squad" is legit, but you need a good box to play it.

Mine is a potato cus I'm holding out for the new wave of graphics cards and it chunks so hard when lots of vehicles and smoke gets close to me.

"Monster Train" is another game that I would highly recommend.

I know how you feel. I'm not sure it's ADHD. I think we are just getting old and we've played all the same crap too many years. It's more boring now. We need more to be entertained. Gotta get on discord and have a friend to shoot the breeze with while playing.

All that new hardware is right around the corner man. I'm gonna throw down.
I've been playing the snot out of War Thunder for a long time. Lots of fun, free to play, though you'll likely wind up spending a few bucks if you find yourself enjoying it.

Recently been getting my 'creative' on in Stormworks, too - that's been a bunch of fun.

Have also picked up "The Outer Worlds" as a single player space RPG thingy on sale which I haven't actually fired up yet, but I'm hoping for some fun with.
 
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The Pumpkin King
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Old
483 - 10-27-2020, 02:21
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Originally Posted by MC Hamster View Post
I don't really have a problem with people believing in God if it gives them some form of peace or comfort,
I often hear this over and over and over again.

I always get so confused when I read it.

I suppose for someone that does not see the physical evidence pointing in a different direction, the only conclusion is that there must be something in it for that person to just turn a blind eye to all the evidence.

The main reason I was compelled to begin believing in God was by listening to debates and drawing in a lot of information from opposing world-views.

I listened to everything that Hitchens, Dawkins, and many others had to say. I was not nearly as compelled by their evidence presented as I was by William Lane Craig, who I have heard referred to by Atheists as a "bull**** artist." However, Dawkins has refused direct challenges to debate him on multiple occasions.

The first time I saw a Theist win a debate against an Atheist, I was straight up shocked and confused. I didn't even realize that could happen. I had believed that Atheism was so strong for so long it really just baffled my mind to an extreme degree. His arguments were so straight-forward, so full of logic and deduction, and I couldn't see much flaw in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MC Hamster View Post
if it's something that works for you, then so be it. I'll admit I probably do think a little less of people for it because I appreciate an analytical, logical mind and the concept of the 'supernatural' doesn't really fit with that for me.
Again, it wasn't what made me feel the most comfortable or what I felt would work best. I just looked to the evidence and found it to be more compelling towards an intelligent designer. The more I read, the less I began to doubt. Everything I looked at, from all sides, just kept pointing me in the same direction again and again.

For me, I feel the same way in reverse. I can't understand how anyone can look at all the evidence and not arise to the same conclusion as me, though I definitely do not look down on them for drawing different conclusions.

For me, Theism is the more analytical logical conclusion, however, having grown up in church and in a negative environment based around that, I understand how you feel.

Religion must seem very silly to you indeed. I get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MC Hamster View Post
To be clear: I grew up in a school with weekly church services, singing hymns and studying the bible. I've read it plenty and while I can't say I can quote verses, I'm familiar with most of it. I consider myself what might be called by some as a 'weak athiest'.. I don't believe in god, but I'm not going to come out and yell that one doesn't exist - I figure that is just a yet another dogmatic position - maybe some day we'll actually stumble on something and say "well, I guess this is what all those various people refer to as a god then", but it's not something we'll ever be able to prove does not exist - that's practically part of the definition in being "beyond our understanding".
Yes, I have encountered this the most. For me, it is often that church is the worst place to find God.

I have talked with sooooo many people that grew up in a heavy church environment that ended up despising anything that had to do with the word God. People end up associating a long list of terrible things that people do with God. That's another reason why I dislike organized religion.

I respect that you feel it's a dogmatic position, and I don't blame you. I used to feel the same way. Now I feel the same in reverse. Generally if people challenge my beliefs I'm willing to have a honest discussion, but I find that when I point out the flaws in Atheism, people often don't even argue and just throw out ad-hominem attacks lickety split, which further convinces me even more that they are not on the side of logic and reason.

"You are stupid" just never seems like a good argument to me and when I see people saying that, it's almost always an instant red flag that they have no good information to provide. People that have strong knowledge never need to resort to name-calling, cus they can just pummel you with logic. I know not all Atheists are like that though. I also know a lot of Theists that are quite nasty indeed and are guilty of the same kind of weak argument format.

I really liked your lines about "beyond understanding."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MC Hamster View Post
Where I begin to object (and I'm not suggesting this of anyone) is when that belief is turned outwards, and impacts others. If you think two people shouldn't get married because your own beliefs say that's wrong, you're welcome to that thought but don't for a second think that gives you the right to stop them. I also have a huge issue with the sheer hypocrisy involved with most organised religions. From the Roman Catholics right the way through to the modern evangelical mega-churches, there is stuff in there they explain away and justify to themselves which plainly contradicts the actual teachings of the bible they profess to revere, and often cause huge amounts of harm to those they should be protecting, in doing so. There is a huge amount of self-serving in there, in direct contradiction to the self-sacrifice which is the single most fundamental, identifiable pillar on which the entire religion is based: The symbol of the cross on which their god gave his own life (sacrificed himself, to himself, to save his followers from... himself. Ok, that's all a bit weird.)

But yeah, if you find comfort in a belief in God, and you don't feel the need to impose that upon others, then know that although that's maybe a bit of a negative on the opinion poll from me, I'm fine with it and happy that it works for you.
On this we seem to agree very directly.

I've seen so much harm come from organized religion. So very much.

I have been on this forum for 20 years, and I began believing in God about 9 years ago, and still nobody on here knew that about me until this thread started. Most people that know me do not know that I believe in God. I keep it to myself, and for very good and strong reasons.

I find it repulsive when others push their views on you strongly. Especially when they get angry and rude or super pushy when you politely rebuke them.

The way I see it is: "If you have diamonds, you don't need to force them on people." In other words, if you have something of value, people will come asking, not the other way around.

I want everyone to make up their own minds. I never look down on others for drawing the conclusions they do. Often I feel they have super good reasons to draw the conclusions they do.

I feel like a lot of what is taught about the bible today is simply man-made religion that has been painted on top of the book through years of ideas being painted over the book orally, and in many cases, even purposeful mistranslations. If you look at the bible's source material in greek, it often says things that are significantly different than what is taught in churches today.

Some of the stuff in the bible is straight up pornagraphic. When I saw that I was like "WTF?"

There are some verses in the bible, that if I got up on a podium and read them, all the mom's would be covering their kids ears and they would freak out for sure.

And yet, that is their holy book that they themselves find disgusting and reject.

There's just so much weirdness. I could rant about it all day.

I'd love to get to your next post on the Cambrian Explosion, but I gotta crash and I'm mostly booked up for a good while after that. Hopefully I can get to it later.

Great talk.
 
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MC Hamster
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Old
484 - 10-27-2020, 03:22
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Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
I often hear this over and over and over again.

I always get so confused when I read it.

I suppose for someone that does not see the physical evidence pointing in a different direction, the only conclusion is that there must be something in it for that person to just turn a blind eye to all the evidence.

The main reason I was compelled to begin believing in God was by listening to debates and drawing in a lot of information from opposing world-views.
I guess I'm happier to say "I don't know, but one day I might find out." than "Because God." As you say, there's a lot out there that we can't explain, but I fail to see any reason to put them all in a big bucket and allocate them to some cosmic intelligence that made things that way. I can't remember where it came from, but I remember something of a parable about a puddle in a pothole suddenly gaining sentience and being amazed at how well the ground underneath it contoured around its own form, how amazing it was that the sky above let more rain in to let it grow, and could come to no other conclusion that the pothole had been built specifically to house it.


Quote:
I listened to everything that Hitchens, Dawkins, and many others had to say. I was not nearly as compelled by their evidence presented as I was by William Lane Craig, who I have heard referred to by Atheists as a "bull**** artist." However, Dawkins has refused direct challenges to debate him on multiple occasions.
I really don't go in for debating Theism or Athiesm, or holding up the likes of Dawkins as some authority on What I Don't Believe. There is a church around Athiesm in itself which I also find somewhat amusing, and I also think stems from an amount of insecurity - a need to don a label to tell the world what you think. I don't particularly care. I don't think there's any sort of God out there. If there is, it's certainly not something that I've ever seen have an actual impact on anything (beyond things done "in His name", which has been a lot, of both good and bad), and so I'm pretty comfortable to say is effectively irrelevant.
Quote:
I just looked to the evidence and found it to be more compelling towards an intelligent designer. The more I read, the less I began to doubt. Everything I looked at, from all sides, just kept pointing me in the same direction again and again.

For me, I feel the same way in reverse. I can't understand how anyone can look at all the evidence and not arise to the same conclusion as me, though I definitely do not look down on them for drawing different conclusions.
I'm yet to see any sort of actual evidence for intelligent design. I've seen a lot of supposition, a lot of misunderstanding, and a lot of cherry picking, but never anything that made me say "well yup, it must have been that way." Then there's also the uncomfortable part of it that comes in with some of the less savoury aspects of life and existence... parasites and creatures with behaviours and survival mechanisms that really make you wonder what sort of mind would have deliberately created them that way.

Quote:
For me, Theism is the more analytical logical conclusion, however, having grown up in church and in a negative environment based around that, I understand how you feel.

Religion must seem very silly to you indeed. I get it.
Oh, don't get me wrong - I quite enjoyed that at the time and it's not something I look back on with any sort of negativity or distaste. Neither of my parents were particularly religious, and although the church was "there", it's a Church of England one which is pretty light on the Eternal Damnation and a bit more focused on a nice cup of tea and perhaps a bit of a bake sale. Very tame stuff, and the ministers there were genuinely nice people. Same with the bit of exposure to Catholics I've had as well (Mum's side of the family, but very very lapsed ). The people involved, particularly at the ground level, are generally wonderful. The institutions that build around them can be problematic.


Quote:
I want everyone to make up their own minds. I never look down on others for drawing the conclusions they do. Often I feel they have super good reasons to draw the conclusions they do.
I probably ought to clarify what I said... Yes, my initial reaction to hearing someone is religious is an unconscious -rep. A mild one, but it's there, I can't deny that. I usually get over it, especially if I can see where they're coming from in that. If it winds up giving me the impression that that belief comes from a closed mind, it'll stick - and that's probably where the actual annoyance comes from, so I suspect that in that respect at least we're not really all that different.

Quote:
I feel like a lot of what is taught about the bible today is simply man-made religion that has been painted on top of the book through years of ideas being painted over the book orally, and in many cases, even purposeful mistranslations. If you look at the bible's source material in greek, it often says things that are significantly different than what is taught in churches today.

Some of the stuff in the bible is straight up pornagraphic. When I saw that I was like "WTF?"

There are some verses in the bible, that if I got up on a podium and read them, all the mom's would be covering their kids ears and they would freak out for sure.

And yet, that is their holy book that they themselves find disgusting and reject.

There's just so much weirdness. I could rant about it all day.
That "man made" element is pervasive throughout it. The Catholics have all those surrounds of the Confessional, of Original Sin and Communion and the idolatry of Mary which is just nowhere to be seen in there, CoE is a happy excuse for divorce, and the modern Evangelicals and "Prosperity Theology" which flies utterly in the face of what's actually in the Bible in the first place, and it's pretty plainly obviously that it largely comes down to trying to find some combination that works. But then you start throwing in the Apocrypha, and realise that work we know as The Bible has been edited and rewritten since it originated (which apparently has all also been part of that Intelligent Design - shaped by the unseen hand of God), and it's all laughable.

...and it still comes down to a story in which the hero is actually a bit of a bastard.


(and with that essay done, I'm off too)
 
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lemontw
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Old
485 - 10-27-2020, 07:55
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mix master gerbil has spoken

/thread
 
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Pagy
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486 - 10-27-2020, 08:45
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I'm yet to see any sort of actual evidence for intelligent design.
thatís because there isnt any, and its not remotely a scientific concept
 
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Falhawk
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487 - 10-27-2020, 09:29
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I know that God is real.
Which god(s)

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NoGodForMe
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488 - 10-27-2020, 09:44
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The main reason I was compelled to begin believing in God was by listening to debates and drawing in a lot of information from opposing world-views.

I have talked with sooooo many people that grew up in a heavy church environment that ended up despising anything that had to do with the word God. People end up associating a long list of terrible things that people do with God. That's another reason why I dislike organized religion.
People believe in God because it gives them hope for something after they die. We're only on this planet for a short amount of time. If everyone believed you are simply gone after dying, then there would be total anarchy.

There's a difference between believing in One Mighty God and Religion. They are two separate things. The problem with religion, is once you find out about it, they tell you if you don't believe you're going to hell.

Christianity - Say the prayer accepting Jesus Christ and all your sins are gone. If you don't, you live in hell forever.
Islam - Believe or your head is cut off.

If you do join, then you are expected to serve by giving all your time and money to those who run the church and do what they say. This is the part where people despise religion.
 
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Last edited by NoGodForMe; 10-27-2020 at 09:51..
Falhawk
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489 - 10-27-2020, 09:47
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Ngfm has won this thread so many times

#usabible2020

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Dr Dance
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Old
490 - 10-27-2020, 10:00
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Philosophy 101
 
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The Pumpkin King
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Old
491 - 10-27-2020, 12:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemontw View Post
mix master gerbil has spoken

/thread
Does he not usually post? That's cool.

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Originally Posted by Pagy View Post
thatís because there isnt any, and its not remotely a scientific concept
That is perhaps one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read.

The study of the fine-tuning of the universe is highly scientific indeed.

Anyone saying otherwise simply doesn't understand what measurable, observable truths about our physical reality are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falhawk View Post
Which god
The intelligent designer behind the creation of the universe.

Science teaches that anything that has been created must have a cause.

Science also dictates that the universe came into existence, and therefore there must be a causal agent behind it.

That is what science teaches. Science very strongly points to the existence of God.

If you believe otherwise, then you do not look much to science for your stance on the matter in my humble opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGodForMe View Post
People believe in God because it gives them hope for something after they die.
Possibly one of the most blatantly incorrect widely held beliefs about belief in God.

This is why discussions on the matter are usually a waste of time.

People's knowledge base about religion is so lacking there is no room for discussion really.

Simultaneously Atheism paints a lovely sense of warmth of comfort for those adhering to it. You could just as easily make the exact same argument in reverse.

Really this argument is nothing more than hot air.
 
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Falhawk
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492 - 10-27-2020, 13:34
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If there is a god, is our planet their favorite or are the other planets likely to have life way better somehow?

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lemontw
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493 - 10-27-2020, 13:36
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when dog look up to sky

do he think on god
 
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havax
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Old
494 - 10-27-2020, 13:44
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no, he thinking of the jet flying over.
 
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Pagy
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495 - 10-27-2020, 13:59
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That is what science teaches. Science very strongly points to the existence of God.
 
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The Pumpkin King
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496 - 10-27-2020, 14:26
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Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
Science teaches that anything that has been created must have a cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
Science also dictates that the universe came into existence, and therefore there must be a causal agent behind it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pagy View Post
Please take a look at my above two statements of fact that Pagy is attempting to humiliate and mock.

Which of the above two statements would you, the reader, refute?

Pagy is essentially saying "things can come into existence without any cause," which is the same as believing in magic.

Please provide a single example of something you know in your own experience that has spawned into existence without any cause.
 
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The Pumpkin King
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497 - 10-27-2020, 14:27
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Originally Posted by Falhawk View Post
If there is a god, is our planet their favorite or are the other planets likely to have life way better somehow?

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If there is a cat, is his favorite toy a rubber mouse?
 
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The Pumpkin King
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498 - 10-27-2020, 15:15
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For anyone interested in reading more about the principle of causality that is being mocked and ridiculed as foolishness in this thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_(physics)

"In classical physics, an effect cannot occur before its cause. In Einstein's theory of special relativity, causality means that an effect can not occur from a cause that is not in the back (past) light cone of that event."
 
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Falhawk
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499 - 10-27-2020, 16:41
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Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
If there is a cat, is his favorite toy a rubber mouse?
Do I look like I **** a mushroom?

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Last edited by Falhawk; 10-27-2020 at 17:11..
Falhawk
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500 - 10-27-2020, 16:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemontw View Post
when dog look up to sky

do he think on god
#ngfm

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