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kraska
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21 - 01-13-2010, 19:29
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Rails isnt practical. I hear a lot of people like it, but its a lot harder to set up, more server intensive, and a lot harder to find developers for it. If you're developing a project for yourself, sure use Rails if you want. If you are looking to do full-time work and get hired as a web developer for a company, the standard LAMP stack is the way to go IMO. The vast majority of sites on the web are php or asp based.

As far as php frameworks go, the main one we use at our company is CakePHP. Its not great with large data sets, but its a pretty good framework once you know the best ways to utilize it. Obviously there are pitfalls, but overall, it has a good MVC architecture. Some have compared it to rails for php.

Zend framework is another, though i've never used it. I think its pretty similar to cake. One of our newer developers was familiar with zend, and picked up cake without any problems.
 
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Calamari
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22 - 01-13-2010, 19:48
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I went through the Agile Rails book, the Rails Way book and one more, and in the end, I decided that Rails tries too hard to hide **** from me.

My current company uses Python/Django exclusively, and while I see the advantages of it, it's really only designed to run a single application per server (at least as far as I can see). And even though it has plenty of features, it's still a fairly "young" framework.
 
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Scourge
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23 - 01-13-2010, 20:08
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Python/Django is very in-vogue right now though, so there's that.
 
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Dope
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24 - 01-13-2010, 20:09
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I do .NET webdev now but when I did php I used cakePHP. It's got a bit more of a learning curve than codeignitor from what I hear but when I got over the learning hurdle I loved it.
 
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butters
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25 - 01-13-2010, 20:57
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I used to do .NET dev but now unemployed. I have done a side project in cakePHP and agree with there being a learning curve. But now that I know my way around it, I do enjoy cake.
 
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EPIK
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26 - 01-13-2010, 21:42
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CodeIgniter was introduced to me about 6 months ago... I'm a big fan of it now.
 
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Yogi
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27 - 01-13-2010, 21:57
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Cake is good. Good docs, decent community.
 
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illumina
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28 - 01-13-2010, 22:46
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I've used CakePHP, Zend, and our own custom framework for my job. I have likes and dislikes with each. Find one that you're interested in, and stick to it. That way, you have some personal experience to compare to if you ever branch out to anything different.
 
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jsut
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29 - 01-13-2010, 23:30
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at work we use perl w/ catalyst and python w/ django.
 
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old_skul
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30 - 01-14-2010, 00:04
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All serious, high volume web dev for apps is done in two languages: .NET and Java. You can **** with PHP, ruby, or whatever other language-of-the-week that's popular in the tech schools (Scheme, anyone? No? How about tcl/tk?), but at the end of the day, if you're doing serious work, it's in C# or Java.

I ran the webdev thing throughout the 90s and jumped off the hampster wheel in 2002 into admin stuff. Now I manage WebLogic and WebSphere environments, with some JBoss and Tomcat mixed in.

Most important lesson for admins: Developers are stupid people.
 
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Scourge
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31 - 01-14-2010, 00:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_skul View Post
All serious, high volume web dev for apps is done in two languages: .NET and Java.
no?

PHP is a fantastic presentation language. Facebook, Yahoo, Digg and a lot of other high volume sites use it for their frontend. I'm pretty sure stackoverflow, reddit and a handful of other up-and-comers are done in Python. I'm sure most of them are doing a little better than the traditional LAMP stack for their data crunching, but.. yeah. You're pretty much talking out of your ass.

I'm not saying the other languages don't have merit - Java in particular shines especially in developing web services in my experience. It's true that most large corporations turn to supported architecture for their development (for a lot of reasons). But the notion that no "serious" work for "real" applications happens in PHP/python/etc is pretty.. wrong.
 
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afex
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32 - 01-14-2010, 00:29
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saying php isn't for high volume sites is pretty ignorant.
 
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Gringo
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33 - 01-14-2010, 00:43
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i think what skul is saying that most high-level, multi-million dollar companies and contracts will ride on C# any day over php. time warner cable for instance uses php for a few small apps (that are all internal), but when it comes to the backbone of their production for public sites, its in C# (or currently being moved there).

i wouldnt consider stackoverflow and reddit on the same page as twc, but i cuold be biased.
 
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Scourge
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34 - 01-14-2010, 01:00
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way to pick the two smallest sites I listed (both of which are Python, not PHP)

I used to work for Target and all our internal web stuff was ASP and Java, I get it. But I think a lot of that comes because these corporations WANT to have licensed and supported architecture. They pay for it for the same reason they pay for Office instead of switching to Open Office. Plus it's established, they've got relationships with the vendors, their development teams know how to do it, etc. etc.

If I were in a corporate environment I'd lean more towards those architectures too. It's way too easy to make completely unsupportable apps in PHP if you don't use a relatively rigid framework. Hell, sometimes it's hard to work on my own stuff if I did it more than a year or so ago.

That's not a weakness of the language though - it's the lack of a framework (hint: you're not JUST coding with C#) and a lack of planning in building the app. You can still make ****ty stuff with .NET and Java, it's just (a bit) tougher to do.
 
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HaPpY
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35 - 01-14-2010, 01:22
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you nerds should ask yourselves "what would google do?"... so far i really doubt theyd use any of the frameworks-of-the-month listed so far.
 
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Scourge
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36 - 01-14-2010, 01:26
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they'd make their own framework AND language.
 
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Gringo
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37 - 01-14-2010, 01:28
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well, youre the one who brought up stackoverflow and reddit, so w/e

dont recall anyone saying anything about a weakness of the language, either. in fact, everything you said strengthened his opinion.

is target serious, high-volume work? yes
is "a handful of up and comers" serious, high-volume work? dunno, you didnt mention any others.

fwiw, im trying right now to get our director to accept js packages like extjs and jq as useful in daily operations. but for the same reason they dont want to use php/mysql, they also dont want to use extensive js packages. the curve exists, it isnt widely taught and accepted, and its much easier to replace a .net'er than a js'er.
 
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Fox
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38 - 01-14-2010, 01:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaPpY View Post
you nerds should ask yourselves "what would google do?"... so far i really doubt theyd use any of the frameworks-of-the-month listed so far.
They seem to love Djanjo and Python from what I gathered.

Also, could someone PM me the most recent Branzone coupon?
 
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Scourge
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39 - 01-14-2010, 01:32
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No, his opinion was:

Quote:
All serious, high volume web dev for apps is done in two languages: .NET and Java.
That's simply not true, as evidenced by the serious, high volume apps that I mentioned above (facebook, digg, yahoo, etc.). I was trying to relate to why he may have the opinion that most "real work" is done in Java/C#. I'm really not trying to get into a 'my language is better than yours' geek off, I just don't understand how someone who should know better would say nothing big is done in PHP.

In fact, upon further research. Google uses Python extensively combined with their own database structure called "BigTable".
 
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Last edited by Scourge; 01-14-2010 at 01:34..
HaPpY
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40 - 01-14-2010, 01:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scourge View Post
they'd make their own framework AND language.
exactly... maybe not a language but a framework isnt some magical untouchable concept a devoted developer cant tackle themselves... that is if they care about making a decent application. if they hate their job and want to crap out estore #8472 so they can punch out at 5 they can go right ahead.
 
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