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HomeSlice
VeteranX
Old
101 - 06-30-2009, 20:03
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Needs more of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5G3pGFVLOo
 
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artemisfowl
VeteranX
Old
102 - 06-30-2009, 20:31
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Not gonna see that at an NBA game.
 
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Kizzak
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Old
103 - 06-30-2009, 20:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joemomma5000 View Post
So you would rather have teams with a less attractive offer get a team because they are American, than to have the best teams possible in the league? How does that help anything?

It just looks like we want different things; I want the best possible soccer and the best possible exposure of the sport in North America; you want America to have it's own world-calibre league. Seeing as there isn't a single team between us worth a **** internationally, I think pooling our resources is a good thing. Besides; like it or not, Toronto introduced millions to the MLS, and Vancouver/Montreal will do the same.

As for Seattle, saying that they didn't learn from Toronto is laughable. And I am ignoring obvious things like physically seeing their management team (including Carey) at BMO field several times last year. Maybe they just happened to be in the same place at the same time! (This isn't to knock Seattle in any way though; I love that there is another team that can actually sell tickets and have decent fans).

Toronto is in third, I forgot about their horrible bed-****ting the other night. My bad.
The thing you are failing to understand (again), is that the MLS is the American first division. Canada has it's own league structure that the Canadian teams can go join and build up.

FIFA has specific restrictions on leagues which hurt large countries more than small countries, especially large countries with no promotion or relegation.


If Canada is willing to dissolve their league structure entirely and petition FIFA to recognize the MLS as the combined US-Canada league (theoretically allowing them to expand past 20 teams among other handicaps), then we can talk. Until then, Canadian teams are taking spots from American teams in the top tier American league and by virtue of the waiver granted to the Canadian teams, Canadian players are taking spots from American players in an American league.


The passion for Toronto wouldn't last, btw, if promotion/relegation was around. They only averaged around 2k per game in USL-1
 
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confidential
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Old
104 - 06-30-2009, 22:05
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Originally Posted by HomeSlice View Post
Needs more of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5G3pGFVLOo
that goalie has a stupid haircut
 
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KillerONE
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Old
105 - 06-30-2009, 22:22
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that goalie has a stupid haircut
If you're talking about Onstad, he's like 41 and I don't think it's the haircut, it's the grey that makes it look weird.
 
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Shopper47
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Old
106 - 06-30-2009, 23:52
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Originally Posted by Kizzak View Post
The thing you are failing to understand (again), is that the MLS is the American first division. Canada has it's own league structure that the Canadian teams can go join and build up.

FIFA has specific restrictions on leagues which hurt large countries more than small countries, especially large countries with no promotion or relegation.


If Canada is willing to dissolve their league structure entirely and petition FIFA to recognize the MLS as the combined US-Canada league (theoretically allowing them to expand past 20 teams among other handicaps), then we can talk. Until then, Canadian teams are taking spots from American teams in the top tier American league and by virtue of the waiver granted to the Canadian teams, Canadian players are taking spots from American players in an American league.


The passion for Toronto wouldn't last, btw, if promotion/relegation was around. They only averaged around 2k per game in USL-1
Canada's League Structure stands around the USL, and has done so for 15+ years. I don't think anyone is disputing that the MLS is an american league -you've made that abundantly clear - the issue is weither or not it should remain so (which it already has not) and the answer is a resounding no. How do FIFA's rules hurt the USA? You have a solid World Cup team now (who all play in Europe), and MLS is nowhere near most other country's calibre of play. You'd think that the best way to better the league would be to get better players (something that only happens with popularity and money), but you seem more determined in giving more American cities a fair shot at joining the league? Hah!

The truth is you need us just as much as we need you, and our players are rifled through your teams just as much as yours are in ours. Hell, how many of your teams even turn a profit? Two? lol.

Get off your high horse. Your way will never promote successful American soccer. You have a population six times the size of England and you are butt****ingly terrible. Accepting some Canucki love can only do you good (and yes, the best 20 teams ANYWHERE in North America should be in. 20 decent teams total beats 16 decent and 16 ****ing awful teams).

As for Canadian players taking American spots, get the **** out of here. Are you against having DPs? Name me a decent league that doesn't have international players? You have your USA minimum restrictions just like we do; going America-only is retarded and out-dated.

The passion for Toronto exists because we are a 5 million+ International city and multicultural front-runner for the entire planet. Besides, relegation would hurt every MLS team; especially considering so many of them have attendance issues to begin with.
 
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Kizzak
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Old
107 - 07-01-2009, 00:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joemomma5000 View Post
Canada's League Structure stands around the USL, and has done so for 15+ years. I don't think anyone is disputing that the MLS is an american league -you've made that abundantly clear - the issue is weither or not it should remain so (which it already has not) and the answer is a resounding no. How do FIFA's rules hurt the USA? You have a solid World Cup team now (who all play in Europe), and MLS is nowhere near most other country's calibre of play. You'd think that the best way to better the league would be to get better players (something that only happens with popularity and money), but you seem more determined in giving more American cities a fair shot at joining the league? Hah!
FIFA's rules hurt the US because of the upper limit on the number of teams allowed in a league.

One of the biggest things that can help motivate kids into getting interested and possibly continue to play past youth soccer is to go to top-level games in person. When an entire region of the country representing 67 million individuals does not have a single team in the top league, this suggests we are failing to take advantage of significant potential.


Canada population: 33 million
South-east population: 67 million

which one carries greater potential for popularity and top players?

Quote:
The truth is you need us just as much as we need you, and our players are rifled through your teams just as much as yours are in ours.
Canadians in US teams are treated the same as any other non-American nationality is (aka there's a limit to the number of them allowed on a team).

Quote:
Get off your high horse. Your way will never promote successful American soccer. You have a population six times the size of England and you are butt****ingly terrible. Accepting some Canucki love can only do you good (and yes, the best 20 teams ANYWHERE in North America should be in. 20 decent teams total beats 16 decent and 16 ****ing awful teams).
Why the **** would kids in the US give a **** about what goes on in Canada?
The answer is they won't. Placing more teams in Canada won't promote soccer in the US whatsoever.

Quote:
As for Canadian players taking American spots, get the **** out of here. Are you against having DPs? Name me a decent league that doesn't have international players? You have your USA minimum restrictions just like we do; going America-only is retarded and out-dated.
you get waivers to count canadians so you don't go over the maximum foreign limit whereas the rest of the league doesn't. As a result, every other team has 13-16 Americans on their roster where you have 6 Americans and 6 Canadians. This is my objection, you play in a US league and you should be subject to the same rules as everyone else - Canadians should count as internationals as they do in the rest of the league.


Quote:
The passion for Toronto exists because we are a 5 million+ International city and multicultural front-runner for the entire planet.
Which is why the Toronto USL team managed only a meager 2,000/game attendance, lower than the vast majority of other teams in the USL?






I also don't know why you keep insisting this is a North American league, Mexican clubs have absolutely no interest in joining. This is still an American league with some Canadians trying to me-too their way in like any other younger brother.
 
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Harlequin_Jester
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108 - 07-01-2009, 01:11
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Originally Posted by Yawnfest View Post
Agreed. Stop giving teams to places just because you want to reach that geographical part of the US or you want some form of Canada/US balance. The next 3 places to bring a team are complete no brainers: Montreal, Vancouver, and Portland. All of them have really strong fan bases that will pack the stadiums and we'd get the extra drama of a Northwest 3-way rivalry. The most fun I've had at soccer matches was watching the Portland Timbers play. Best fans ever.
The fact that MLS started without Portland and Seattle shows you how ignorant the MLS was in '96. The Pacific NW carried the NASL financially and didn't rely on a Pele or Best to do it. I'd argue that the northwest is probably the most soccer savvy area of the country with a high youth participation, adult leagues, and international following.

Seattle and Portland have very good built-in fan bases from their NASL/A League/USL predecessors (though Portland has always sucked) and benefit from having stadiums inside their metro areas. I think the real lesson from Seattle is to have a smart FO, good marketing partnerships, and play your games downtown.
 
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Harlequin_Jester
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109 - 07-01-2009, 01:15
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And I look forward to July 18th against the ******s of Chelsea.
 
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artemisfowl
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Old
110 - 07-01-2009, 09:33
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Icey
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Old
111 - 07-01-2009, 09:52
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Originally Posted by Harlequin_Jester View Post
The fact that MLS started without Portland and Seattle shows you how ignorant the MLS was in '96. The Pacific NW carried the NASL financially and didn't rely on a Pele or Best to do it. I'd argue that the northwest is probably the most soccer savvy area of the country with a high youth participation, adult leagues, and international following.

Seattle and Portland have very good built-in fan bases from their NASL/A League/USL predecessors (though Portland has always sucked) and benefit from having stadiums inside their metro areas. I think the real lesson from Seattle is to have a smart FO, good marketing partnerships, and play your games downtown.
A couple of sterling points. I'll admit right off the bat here that I like the NFL better than soccer and only have so much time to follow sports that I know more about NFL, NCAAF, MMA and even golf than I know about soccer with the exception of our MNT. But that's just a patriotism thing.

That being said, one of my uncles played in the old NASL so I know something about the history of American soccer and you're right on HJ. MLS was basically thrown together to get the WC in 1994 and they went with the biggest population bases, and added a couple of regions with some soccer history when they put the first teams out there. That's why Tampa and Miami are no longer in the league. MLS is finally really on track to be both profitable and popular, albeit only regionally in the case of the northwest and in the cities that have teams. But that's fine. That's probably as popular as the sport will be unless the MNT makes a deep run in the WC.

Because honestly, that's the only thing that will catapult MLS over even the less popular leagues like the NHL or NBA. The NFL and MLB... hell even NASCAR dominate this country's sporting addiction. The higher ups at MLS should be working to make the league a dominant fixture in regions that are receptive to it like the northwest and focus on getting stadiums in downtown areas because the suburbs are going to die as energy prices rise and roads become even more clogged.

It sets the table and gets the league ready for an explosion of popularity. But the only thing that will trigger it is a World Cup title. That's pretty much it. Even a berth in the finals won't do it. We saw a small burst with a QF run in 2002 and if we make the semis, and play in the third place game for instance, that will bring another surge but it will only last for that year. Like it or not MLS has to just do what it can to be profitable and pray that somehow our boys win a WC title in the next couple of decades. That's the only thing that will make soccer close to level with basketball or baseball.
 
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Kerosene31
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112 - 07-01-2009, 10:12
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I don't see why soccer can't start growing in the US. It has to be in the summer though. All it competes with is 4+ hour baseball games which nobody watches (and I like baseball). It is never going to be huge, but there's no reason it can't be growing. Games are 2 hours total, which works well for the summer.

I just started following the MLS this year, and am a newer fan of the sport in general. I always followed the World Cups, along with some EPL and Serie A games (whatever bone FSC throws us).

It is pretty entertaining at times. The problem is that some of the matchups just suck. I see KC vs Salt Lake... and *yawn*. Plus you turn it on, and there are 6000 fans in the stands. On the other hand, you turn on a Sounders, Toronto or other big fan base and you see a sold out stadium filled with crazy fans.

I signed up for the online games from the website and try to catch a bunch. It is so hard to follow the European leagues from the US, but even if the MLS is not that great, I can follow it easier.
 
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KillerONE
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113 - 07-01-2009, 10:36
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MLS needs more TV time on ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. We usually only get ESPN2 if we're lucky, and FSC I think has Saturday night rights.

And even then, it's like 1 game.

And of course, being in the midwest (SD), I don't really have a local team I can follow, yes, KC is close, but, it's KC. Chicago isn't too far off but I hate Blanco.

MLS has been growing well in the last couple years with the expansions, I think we need to involve larger regions in downtown areas (as mentioned) and get more TV time of good rivalries/championships (Super Classico is a good one) on larger networks.

Oh and I like the fact that Concacaf started the Champions League, that's a great idea. More regional "cups" or even national cups like England has would be good. Our Concacaf CL is like UEFA CL, Gold Cup = FA Cup? Anyway, it's nice that we have Soccer that is above and beyond MLS. Makes things more exciting. But we need to get them on TV!
 
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Last edited by KillerONE; 07-01-2009 at 10:39..
JohnMcClane
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114 - 07-01-2009, 10:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerONE View Post
Oh and I like the fact that Concacaf started the Champions League, that's a great idea. More regional "cups" or even national cups like England has would be good. Our Concacaf CL is like UEFA CL, Gold Cup = FA Cup? Anyway, it's nice that we have Soccer that is above and beyond MLS. Makes things more exciting. But we need to get them on TV!
Gold Cup = Euros

U.S. Open Cup = FA Cup
 
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EssexLord
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115 - 07-01-2009, 11:41
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Originally Posted by Kizzak View Post
FIFA's rules hurt the US because of the upper limit on the number of teams allowed in a league.

......

I also don't know why you keep insisting this is a North American league, Mexican clubs have absolutely no interest in joining. This is still an American league with some Canadians trying to me-too their way in like any other younger brother.
You're going to hate me saying this, but TFC saved this league. I don't want to make this a US vs. Canada thing (because it's not Canada it's Toronto), but without the addition of TFC 3 years ago this league would be in a downward spiral. Next year after Phily joins it'll be hard to make the same claim (at this point we'll have 3 top-notch organizations in Toronto, Seattle, and Philly), but Toronto essentially showed the league what they were doing wrong.

Look at expansion since 2000 (3 teams in 7 years); Chivas in 2005, Houston in 2006, Toronto in 2007. Look at expansion since Toronto's success (4+1 in 4 years): Seattle, Philly, Portland, Vancouver, and in all likely hood Montreal. Look at WHERE these teams are placed; each creates an instant rivalry and most are placed in 'proper' markets with good existing support (not a single expansion team after 2007 is expected to struggle financially either). Efforts by each front office have mimicked and improved (respect where it's due) on TFC's efforts in the first couple years. Geographic proximity of the stadium to the 'central core' of each city has shrunk, and interaction with supporters groups has been ramped up exponentially (look at the **** Red Bulls/Chicago/Dallas fans have to go through) ... because of Toronto.

In addition to this, the supporters groups for TFC in themselves are top-notch organizations, and have join the existing groups (Barra Brava, Section 8, ...) and have pushed for changes in the league that will benefit US Soccer. This includes adding our support to Barra Brava for a downtown stadium, adding our voices to complaints against FC Dallas's FO for treatment of supporters, and trying to improve the CBA so we don't have players making minimum wage. In addition to this, the Canadian supporters groups (TFC/Impact/Whitecaps) are starting to put pressure on other Canadian markets to join lower USL leagues; I think there's even an idea to buy a USL PDL team in and around the Greater Toronto Area (ala Ebbsfield United).

I'm not trying to say that Toronto is the best MLS organization, we're the best team, we have the best fans, or any **** like that (personally I do believe this, but I'm obviously biased). But we do have a beneficial situation here (both to the US and Canada), and arguing against something that has given direct benefit to US Soccer is asinine.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To knock off some of your points:

1) The South-East has had 2 teams, and Miami was supposed to be a 'sure-thing' expansion team with Barcelona as a partner. All crashed and burned horribly. The South-East is not ready for MLS.

2) Toronto Lynx (USL team) was horribly supported, no one can argue that. The biggest different between TFC and the Lynx is the age of the target market. 50% of TFC fans (in the stands) are men in the 20-30 age range; 5 years ago (right before the Lynx went USL PDL) this demographic wouldn't be spending money (even on TFC). They've successfully captured the 'baby-boom-echo' generation of sons (and some daughters) of immigrants, and timed the introduction of the MLS franchise perfectly.

3) Like everybody else is (for some ****ing reason), you're underestimating the support for TFC (when claiming 'the passion won't last'). Our lasting support will be our third gift to the league (the rivalry with Montreal will be the second; have fun touching each other's nuts Seattle and Portland!). It honestly hasn't even started.

4) Relegation (after a pyramid is created using USL branches and Canadian and Puerto Rico leagues) will benefit everyone, and will ultimately reward teams such as Toronto and Seattle because of their large fan base (the salary cap would have to be drastically changed, and in doing so you allow something equivalent to the 'big-two/three/four' that you see in European leagues). I want relegation, and I understand that if it did exist Toronto would probably be in a lower league right now. This does not bug me at all; I support Toronto till the day I die.
 
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JohnMcClane
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Old
116 - 07-01-2009, 11:50
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Relegation could work in the very very very very distant future.
 
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groundzero
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117 - 07-01-2009, 11:51
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I wasn't clear. I have media passes for myself to that game. I wanted to see if anyone else was going, have a tdub meetup.
 
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Kerosene31
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118 - 07-01-2009, 12:06
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Originally Posted by KillerONE View Post
And of course, being in the midwest (SD), I don't really have a local team I can follow, yes, KC is close, but, it's KC. Chicago isn't too far off but I hate Blanco.
I'm in Buffalo, NY and I'm rooting for the Sounders

Who needs geography. There's no way in heck I'm rooting for Toronto (and getting over the border is evil anyway). Columbus? Naw. New York? Nope.

I hope to catch a Sounders game when they play on the road out this way and can watch the rest online (the MLS online subscription is like $20 a season and is really good).

The MLS will be better when we get all the Pacific NW rivalries going, and hopefully they add Montreal from the USL to compete with TO and other teams.
 
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confidential
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119 - 07-01-2009, 12:14
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you need soccer in the southeast. do you realize how many ****ing latinos there are here

i know management or whatever for teams here, esp in miami, has sucked pretty bad. but it's a shockingly huge region that doesn't have an mls team
 
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EssexLord
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120 - 07-01-2009, 12:43
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Originally Posted by confidential View Post
you need soccer in the southeast. do you realize how many ****ing latinos there are here

i know management or whatever for teams here, esp in miami, has sucked pretty bad. but it's a shockingly huge region that doesn't have an mls team
I know it makes logical sense, but they've tried twice and failed twice. Even with Barcelona backing the second bid, they just could not get the fan support (fan support was one of the issues behind the latest attempt dropping).

The argument for soccer being popular in US markets with large Latin/Central American populations does seem flawed though; look at Chivas: they're a sister team to one of the biggest and well-supported Mexican teams, they're based in an area with a MASSIVE Latin population (even close to the border), and they can't give tickets away.

Taking a look at Toronto (only because I know the cultural makeup of the city) and there isn't a predominant culture within our stands (although some people will argue English, but in reality it's more 'European as a whole'). The city has large Portuguese and Italian communities but neither have started supporting the team (yet). The largest 1st generation culture with the Greater Toronto Area is probably Chinese, and again there hasn't been much support from this end either.
 
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