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amRam
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181 - 10-17-2020, 16:48
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Originally Posted by HaPpY View Post
a belief is still an opinion... just not from the perspective of the believer
Is the emotional response to a musical arrangement also an opinion? Let's explore that one a little bit deeper.
 
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Amadeus
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182 - 10-17-2020, 17:02
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Originally Posted by amRam View Post
Is the emotional response to a musical arrangement also an opinion? Let's explore that one a little bit deeper.
Call it whatever you want, but you're talking about two very different things here.

Yes, people throughout history have had a tendency for religious belief. That does not mean that whatever they believed in was true though, as evidenced by all the other long-held beliefs that we've since discovered to be false.

"There is a god" and "I believe there is a god" are two different statements that can have two different truth values.
 
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Skipperlipicus
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183 - 10-17-2020, 17:12
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the majority of religious people were raised to be religious by their families and their communities. children don't just decide they're going to believe in god, their faith is something they learned from their parents.

most of the devout christians here would likely be devout muslims if they were born and raised in a different region of the world.

religion gives an easy out for some of life's harder philosophical questions. why are we here? god made us. why did this terrible thing happen? don't worry it's part of god's plan. what is the meaning of life? just follow our religious teachings and you'll get to live next to god in eternity. etc.
 
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amRam
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184 - 10-17-2020, 19:15
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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Call it whatever you want, but you're talking about two very different things here.



Yes, people throughout history have had a tendency for religious belief. That does not mean that whatever they believed in was true though, as evidenced by all the other long-held beliefs that we've since discovered to be false.



"There is a god" and "I believe there is a god" are two different statements that can have two different truth values.
My point was that your asking for a logical and reasoned explanation for why someone believes in god is an impossible request. I'm likening religious faith to the same type of experience one has with art or music or love or any other number of experiences which can't be explained logically, let alone in a casual forum post.
 
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amRam
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185 - 10-17-2020, 19:17
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Originally Posted by Skipperlipicus View Post
the majority of religious people were raised to be religious by their families and their communities. children don't just decide they're going to believe in god, their faith is something they learned from their parents.

most of the devout christians here would likely be devout muslims if they were born and raised in a different region of the world.

religion gives an easy out for some of life's harder philosophical questions. why are we here? god made us. why did this terrible thing happen? don't worry it's part of god's plan. what is the meaning of life? just follow our religious teachings and you'll get to live next to god in eternity. etc.
The question of faith then becomes why your consciousness is so open to the idea in the first place.

The mainstream conversation is always around origins, but that's hardly the point of faith. It serves me no purpose as an individual to know the exact origins of life. But it does serve me purpose to model my being after a higher ideal, which is what faith is in its essence.
 
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Amadeus
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186 - 10-17-2020, 19:29
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Originally Posted by amRam View Post
My point was that your asking for a logical and reasoned explanation for why someone believes in god is an impossible request. I'm likening religious faith to the same type of experience one has with art or music or love or any other number of experiences which can't be explained logically, let alone in a casual forum post.
Your experiences with music or art are subjective and confined to your consciousness. Religious faith usually posits the existence of something in reality outside that, something that affects the real physical universe that we all share and experience. Therefore, such claims are in fact subject to independent investigation.

On a side note, you're doing that thing again where you say that music and love "cannot be explained logically", when I think what you mean is we currently cannot fully explain them. Not the same thing.
 
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The Pumpkin King
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187 - 10-17-2020, 19:29
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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post


So if a lot of people tell you something that you know to be wrong, and you still don't believe it, that makes you close-minded?
Nope. That's not my argument.

My argument is that saying "people don't have good reasons to believe there is no God" or vice versa is a close-minded statement.

There are many good reasons to be an Atheist or a Theist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
If you make a tour of indigenous hut-dwelling tribes, and listen to hundreds of people telling you that illnesses are caused by bad spirits that need to be chased away with drums and incense, are you close-minded for not believing them?
Premises like this are highly problematic for many reasons, however if I entertain this, my answer would be:

That completely depends on your response.

An open-minded individual might ask for hard evidence to consider before deciding. If those people were then able to provide a spirit in a cage that could be experienced, the individual would then begin to believe.

A closed-minded individual would dismiss it outright and begin speaking in a condescending manner to people of "inferior" thinking.

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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Not when it comes to religious belief, as evidenced by the fact that the methods we know to be reliable for determining truth consistently fail to confirm such beliefs.
If only life were so simple, as everything in reality being able to be tested and measured.

Please prove to me right now that you love your family, and if so, by how many "love units"?

Consider going back in time 1000 years and trying to tell people about electricity?

How well equipped are we now in 2020 to measure truth by scientific means? With how vast and mysterious our universe is, it is like using a tooth pick to attempt to slay a dragon. We can't even get off our own planet...

You are incorrect that the methods that we know to be reliable to for determining truth fail to support religion, quite the opposite. Thousands of archeological digs have been performed with the eagerness of disproving the historocity of various religions, and many of them have been woefully disappointed to find out that many people talked about throughout history in religious texts were actually real.

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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Feel free to put yours to the test though.
Why would I do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
I care about truth. If you have some to share, I'd love to hear it.
Why the change of heart?

Could it be that you recognize that replying to anyone challenging your beliefs with "GG ultimate sacrifice" in the first reply is not such a great sign that you are an open-minded person?

Don't worry about it man. You can change tomorrow if you want.

Perhaps the next time you are challenged your first response will be the above quote, which is a very healthy and beautiful statement.

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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Prove that I was wrong to call GG by engaging in an intellectually honest conversation about what your religious beliefs are and why you hold them.

The truth has nothing to fear from investigation, but anyone can make up a false claim and be all "nah man you're just close-minded" when people challenge it.
You have already established me as "intellectually dishonest," so why would you ask for truth from a liar? That's like asking for quality merchandise from someone that only sells broken knock-offs. Your behavior makes little sense.

Everyone in the room, you included, all realize that dismissing someone outright before hearing any form of discussion, reasoning, or argument from them is a bad play. I have no need to push that point any further.
 
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Amadeus
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188 - 10-17-2020, 19:30
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Originally Posted by amRam View Post
The question of faith then becomes why your consciousness is so open to the idea in the first place.

The mainstream conversation is always around origins, but that's hardly the point of faith. It serves me no purpose as an individual to know the exact origins of life. But it does serve me purpose to model my being after a higher ideal, which is what faith is in its essence.
Because it could lead to behaviour that survives natural selection. See my example with the lion and the bush earlier.
 
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amRam
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189 - 10-17-2020, 19:47
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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Your experiences with music or art are subjective and confined to your consciousness. Religious faith usually posits the existence of something in reality outside that, something that affects the real physical universe that we all share and experience. Therefore, such claims are in fact subject to independent investigation.



On a side note, you're doing that thing again where you say that music and love "cannot be explained logically", when I think what you mean is we currently cannot fully explain them. Not the same thing.
Well I'm not from the future so my statement remains true. We cannot explain those things in simple logical terms, which is what YOU expect people to do to justify their faith in higher power.
 
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amRam
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190 - 10-17-2020, 19:48
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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Because it could lead to behaviour that survives natural selection. See my example with the lion and the bush earlier.
It "could" be lots of things. Agreed.
 
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Amadeus
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191 - 10-17-2020, 19:51
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Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
Nope. That's not my argument.

My argument is that saying "people don't have good reasons to believe there is no God" or vice versa is a close-minded statement.

There are many good reasons to be an Atheist or a Theist.
Give me one good reason to be a theist please.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
Premises like this are highly problematic for many reasons, however if I entertain this, my answer would be:

That completely depends on your response.

An open-minded individual might ask for hard evidence to consider before deciding. If those people were then able to provide a spirit in a cage that could be experienced, the individual would then begin to believe.

A closed-minded individual would dismiss it outright and begin speaking in a condescending manner to people of "inferior" thinking.
Ok, so tell me what your "spirit in the cage" is, then provide me with hard evidence for its existence.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
If only life were so simple, as everything in reality being able to be tested and measured.

Please prove to me right now that you love your family, and if so, by how many "love units"?
One could demonstrate by means of monitoring brainwaves and/or hormone levels when exposed to my family, or observing how my behaviour with them differs from that with strangers. That would already be more hard evidence than I've seen for any god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
Consider going back in time 1000 years and trying to tell people about electricity?

How well equipped are we now in 2020 to measure truth by scientific means? With how vast and mysterious our universe is, it is like using a tooth pick to attempt to slay a dragon. We can't even get off our own planet...
Hello god of the gaps. This argument has a terrible history of becoming less and less relevant as human knowledge expands, and every time we actually found an explanation for something, it was never one posited by any religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
You are incorrect that the methods that we know to be reliable to for determining truth fail to support religion, quite the opposite. Thousands of archeological digs have been performed with the eagerness of disproving the historocity of various religions, and many of them have been woefully disappointed to find out that many people talked about throughout history in religious texts were actually real.
Archeological digs are not evidence of a god's existence.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
Why would I do that?
So that you don't look like someone who makes **** up and tries to act smug about being challenged on it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
Why the change of heart?

Could it be that you recognize that replying to anyone challenging your beliefs with "GG ultimate sacrifice" in the first reply is not such a great sign that you are an open-minded person?

Don't worry about it man. You can change tomorrow if you want.

Perhaps the next time you are challenged your first response will be the above quote, which is a very healthy and beautiful statement.
There is no change of heart. With every post where you avoid exposing your beliefs to critical review, you're continuing your surrender. Again, anyone can make up a false claim and act like the world just doesn't get it, or that they're too noble to explain it to the plebs. Right now, you look like one of those people, and it's entirely your own fault.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
You have already established me as "intellectually dishonest," so why would you ask for truth from a liar? That's like asking for quality merchandise from someone that only sells broken knock-offs. Your behavior makes little sense.

Everyone in the room, you included, all realize that dismissing someone outright before hearing any form of discussion, reasoning, or argument from them is a bad play. I have no need to push that point any further.
It wasn't a dismissal, it was a prediction. One that you willingly continue to fulfill.

It would be super easy for you to demonstrate that you are not, in fact, intellectually dishonest, if that really was the case. All you'd need to do is start telling us what you believe and why.
 
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Last edited by Amadeus; 10-17-2020 at 20:38..
Amadeus
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192 - 10-17-2020, 19:54
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Well I'm not from the future so my statement remains true. We cannot explain those things in simple logical terms, which is what YOU expect people to do to justify their faith in higher power.
No, it's not, because faith in a higher power has different standards of evidence by virtue of being a statement about our shared reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amRam View Post
It "could" be lots of things. Agreed.
But you don't believe that it's purely a product of natural selection, do you? So how did you rule out that option?
 
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amRam
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193 - 10-17-2020, 19:57
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Give me one good reaosn to be a theist please.
Orienting oneself towards the highest ideal.
 
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amRam
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194 - 10-17-2020, 20:01
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No, it's not, because faith in a higher power has different standards of evidence by virtue of being a statement about our shared reality.
An individual's faith is not a statement about our shared reality.

An individual's assertion that a physical god created the universe in 6 days is, though. That would be held to a high standard and worthy of scientific dismissal.

There's a difference between these two.
 
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Amadeus
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195 - 10-17-2020, 20:02
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Orienting oneself towards the highest ideal.
Doesn't work, sadly.

1. Why can you not do that on a secular basis?

2. How do you determine which religion's "highest ideal" to orient yourself to?
 
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amRam
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196 - 10-17-2020, 20:03
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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Doesn't work, sadly.

1. Why can you not do that on a secular basis?

2. How do you determine which religion's "highest ideal" to orient yourself to?
These things are not mutually exclusive and your statement that it doesn't work is provably and quite obviously false. It has worked for billions of people. It doesn't mean that its the only way, just that its one way.
 
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Amadeus
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197 - 10-17-2020, 20:03
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An individual's faith is not a statement about our shared reality.

An individual's assertion that a physical god created the universe in 6 days is, though. That would be held to a high standard and worthy of scientific dismissal.

There's a difference between these two.
Does your god manifest in reality in any way?

If yes, that's a statement about reality.

If not, what reason would you have to believe that this god really exists?
 
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amRam
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198 - 10-17-2020, 20:06
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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Does your god manifest in reality in any way?

If yes, that's a statement about reality.

If not, what reason would you have to believe that this god really exists?
I don't wanna keep going back to my same examples so lets stop asking for reasons why a man believes god exists.

Does the belief in god manifest itself in our shared reality? Yes, it does, by way of its impact on individuals and how they orient themselves in the real world. The effect is real, but that doesn't mean that I can draw you a diagram to explain the reasoning or origins of that belief system.
 
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Amadeus
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199 - 10-17-2020, 20:08
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These things are not mutually exclusive and your statement that it doesn't work is provably and quite obviously false. It has worked for billions of people. It doesn't mean that its the only way, just that its one way.
What I meant was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by amRam View Post
Orienting oneself towards the highest ideal.
That's not a good reason.

For one thing, why can you not do that on a secular basis? I put it to you that any positive effect of being a theist can also be achieved without religious belief.

Second, how do you determine which religion's "highest ideal" to orient yourself to?
 
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amRam
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200 - 10-17-2020, 20:11
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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
What I meant was:


That's not a good reason.

For one thing, why can you not do that on a secular basis? I put it to you that any positive effect of being a theist can also be achieved without religious belief.

Second, how do you determine which religion's "highest ideal" to orient yourself to?
I know what you meant, Im saying that my reason does not imply that its the only way to be a good man. You asked for a good reason to be theist, and the one I listed is (as far as Im concerned anyway) the reason for faith. The entirety of the Christian bible boils down to that essence.

Am I saying that faith in higher power is the only way to orient oneself in life? No absolutely not, I don't believe in "god" and Im not a person of faith - I'm still a productive member of society and a good father and good husband.

For your second question, I'd say "you" don't get to determine it in the sense that most folks don't choose their religion. The Christians are down with Jesus. Jews and Muslims and Hindus have their own different paths towards a similar goal.
 
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