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triple
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101 - 07-29-2008, 15:51
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Well thats the thing. We don't need to debate whats better or worse. We can do both!

Why don't you want to do both?
 
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triple
VeteranXV
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102 - 07-29-2008, 15:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TseTse View Post
Again, all you can do is just talk out your ass.

I love your argument that the free market would have done it!
Free market has done it. UPS and FEDEX both have hybrid/fuel-cell vehicles.

Couple dozen each.

For marketing purposes, basically.

See? Free market works!
 
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TseTse
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103 - 07-29-2008, 15:53
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ps... just wait till we all realize how much oil is under the ice melting in greenland.
 
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TseTse
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104 - 07-29-2008, 15:54
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Originally Posted by triple View Post
Free market has done it. UPS and FEDEX both have hybrid/fuel-cell vehicles.
Yes, as i added above... the free market is doing precisely what im arguing and the UG govt oughta be putting its weight behind support these dynamics even more. We should be supporting massive scale overhauls in both public and private sectors. Small investment with huge outcomes.

Welcome to current energy events, triple.
 
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Fox
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105 - 07-29-2008, 15:54
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Originally Posted by triple View Post
Well thats the thing. We don't need to debate whats better or worse. We can do both!

Why don't you want to do both?
I'd rather we spend all our time and money further developing alternative energies.
 
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ScottTheWise13
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Old
106 - 07-29-2008, 15:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TseTse View Post
Yes, as i added above... the free market is doing precisely what im arguing and the UG govt oughta be putting its weight behind support these dynamics even more. We should be supporting massive scale overhauls in both public and private sectors. Small investment with huge outcomes.

Welcome to current energy events, triple.
TseTse, why dont you respond to my post?
 
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triple
VeteranXV
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107 - 07-29-2008, 15:58
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Originally Posted by Fox View Post
I'd rather we spend all our time and money further developing alternative energies.
Well thats the great thing about drilling - WE don't need to fund jack ****. The oil companies pay for everything.
 
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ScottTheWise13
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108 - 07-29-2008, 16:04
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Originally Posted by ScottTheWise13 View Post
Yeah, I dont think anyone thinks the government should pay for drilling. But I dont think thats an issue anywhere in the US. And I think you shoudl allow businesses to decide whether something is a good investment or not.

OK so you are fine w/ allowing more drilling on land.

Why are you against offshore drilling? And don't just say its pointless. It isn't your money that would be spent. I think there are lots of stupid stores and businesses around, but I dont ask to ban them because I think they're pointless.
 
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Esteban_Villa
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109 - 07-29-2008, 16:07
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Originally Posted by TseTse View Post
ps... just wait till we all realize how much oil is under the ice melting in greenland.
now that's the attitude!
 
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TseTse
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110 - 07-29-2008, 16:10
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Sorry, missed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottTheWise13 View Post
Yeah, I dont think anyone thinks the government should pay for drilling. But I dont think thats an issue anywhere in the US. And I think you shoudl allow businesses to decide whether something is a good investment or not.

OK so you are fine w/ allowing more drilling on land.

Why are you against offshore drilling? And don't just say its pointless. It isn't your money that would be spent. I think there are lots of stupid stores and businesses around, but I dont ask to ban them because I think they're pointless.
I think pretending that the oil industry knows what's best for the public interest as an investment is pretty obviously folly.

I'm fine with the ANWaR drilling mostly because i think they can do it in fairly environmentally harmless ways and it would shut a lot of retards up who truly would feel better at night thinking we're doing everything we can. It also would create some wealth, although i'd rather us tap into these reserves after we hit peek oil and once it's clearly become a "rare" commodity.

I'm against the offshore drilling because it truly would do harm to many other industries and is absolutely unnecessary at this point. I'd be happy if the same people screaming for this also wanted to upgrade our refineries... but oddly enough nobody seems to care much about THAT.

Overall, i think these efforts are pointless because it's tossing a cup of water into a barrel that's drying up anyways. We need to focus more on alternative energy, especially during this recession where we can juice the biggest and more radical changes.
 
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TseTse
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111 - 07-29-2008, 16:11
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Originally Posted by SPNirology View Post
now that's the attitude!
I'm not kidding.

For a couple years, my dad and i have a running argument about the greenland oil situation. He sincerely believes we may see wars over drilling rights up there because he buys into the more bullish prospects. I dont know about wars, but i do think we're going to see some pretty significant discoveries of oil.

This will just prolong the "peek oil" date by a decade or two, that's all...

The real **** will hit the fan once we realize we've hit the "half a tank" mark and cant start over.
 
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ScottTheWise13
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112 - 07-29-2008, 16:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TseTse View Post
Sorry, missed it.



I think pretending that the oil industry knows what's best for the public interest as an investment is pretty obviously folly.

I'm fine with the ANWaR drilling mostly because i think they can do it in fairly environmentally harmless ways and it would shut a lot of retards up who truly would feel better at night thinking we're doing everything we can. It also would create some wealth, although i'd rather us tap into these reserves after we hit peek oil and once it's clearly become a "rare" commodity.

I'm against the offshore drilling because it truly would do harm to many other industries and is absolutely unnecessary at this point. I'd be happy if the same people screaming for this also wanted to upgrade our refineries... but oddly enough nobody seems to care much about THAT.

Overall, i think these efforts are pointless because it's tossing a cup of water into a barrel that's drying up anyways. We need to focus more on alternative energy, especially during this recession where we can juice the biggest and more radical changes.
So you think that the environmental damage would be greater than the benefits from it, or that we should wait until it becomes even more valuable.

OK, just wanted to make sure why you didnt' like it.

I don't know why you fill your posts with so much irrelevant information and stuff that does not pertain to the question asked of you.
 
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ExarKun
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113 - 07-29-2008, 16:14
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When I was up in Alaska last summer I don't think a single person had anything good to say about Ted Stevens. Even in the airport named after him everyone hated him. It made me wonder how he even got elected.
 
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TseTse
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115 - 07-29-2008, 16:25
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Originally Posted by ScottTheWise13 View Post
So you think that the environmental damage would be greater than the benefits from it, or that we should wait until it becomes even more valuable.

OK, just wanted to make sure why you didnt' like it.

I don't know why you fill your posts with so much irrelevant information and stuff that does not pertain to the question asked of you.
Because there are multiple issues and discussions?

I think the primary issue is the problem of "peak oil." I think the root problem is that once the world accounces/realizes it has used up half the total global oil supply... the **** will absolutely hit the fan. Oil zealots love to pronounce that we dont have to worry about oil "for at least a hundred years" but the truth is that we have to worry about oil far sooner than before it entirely runs out.

The supply will start to decrease... and the price will dramatically increase.

Oil is freaking us out at being $100+ a barrel. Imagine that being $300 or $600.

Economists debate when this "peak oil" moment will occur but i've concluded that this is really going to be one of the big events of the century. I just read a 3 page article a few weeks back on the top 2 Saudi experts arguing about how soon this will happen (the geologist thinks it's coming very soon and that all the arguments about how much more oil there is out there are mostly bull**** - oh, and he's the #1 guy in terms of figuring out how to suck the most oil out of the ground). The WSJ i think. I was in awe at how different their views were, and in particular... in awe at the other guy who basically argued that we could double our supply with better technology. I didnt end up believing him.

I've concluded that there's going to be a massive crunch in our lifetime, with staggering political and economic implications... around "peak oil."

The sooner we, as a nation, get out of this oil driven energy dependence the better. Hence... my attitude is that even worrying about ANWaR and **** is pointless. If you know you need to quit smoking, you dont waste time and money arguing over cheaper cigs. And this drilling wont even get us cheaper gas.
 
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Last edited by TseTse; 07-29-2008 at 16:27..
Esteban_Villa
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116 - 07-29-2008, 16:27
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I'm actually fairly sure Europe and America to a large extent will have changed their ways by the time our oil reserves start drying up that it will not effect us that much. Most of the world except maybe China and of course the middle east will probably not get hit too hard. What the **** is the middle east going to do when they run out of the only thing that basically everything else services? A massive displacement of people is the only thing I can think of, because basically they're living in the Sahara without the Oil, and in case no one noticed, very few people live there.

Hell, the higher gas prices go, the more cost effective it is for Canada to extract oil from their oil sands and shales, so it's not all THAT bad. One less Middle Easterner to buy oil from is a victory, even if it costs 2x more. I don't think all of the estimates take into account that as oil gets more expensive, the oil that is expensive to drill for will become actually useful.

But I do agree we need to go nuclear/solar/win asap, just saying I don't think it's a doomsday scenario, at least with one of these two candidates in office.
 
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Last edited by Esteban_Villa; 07-29-2008 at 16:30..
ScottTheWise13
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Old
117 - 07-29-2008, 16:31
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Originally Posted by TseTse View Post
I've concluded that there's going to be a massive crunch in our lifetime, with staggering political and economic implications... around "peak oil."

The sooner we, as a nation, get out of this oil driven energy dependence the better. Hence... my attitude is that even worrying about ANWaR and **** is pointless. If you know you need to quit smoking, you dont waste time and money arguing over cheaper cigs. And this drilling wont even get us cheaper gas.
But this is what I dont get:

You claim that offshore drilling/anwr drilling wont affect prices or produce a huge amount of oil, which is probably essentially true. Thus, the desire to get away from oil in general will still be just as strong. so in terms of coming up w/ new technology and energy sources, drilling would make no difference, in your own words!

But it would make some jobs, produce some income, produce some taxes (which can be put to develop more alt. energy).

You talk about how it is "pointless". Well drilling each individual well on land is probably pointless too, then. Should we not allow oil copmanies to drill anywhere anymore?
 
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TseTse
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Old
118 - 07-29-2008, 16:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottTheWise13 View Post
But this is what I dont get:

You claim that offshore drilling/anwr drilling wont affect prices or produce a huge amount of oil, which is probably essentially true. Thus, the desire to get away from oil in general will still be just as strong. so in terms of coming up w/ new technology and energy sources, drilling would make no difference, in your own words!

But it would make some jobs, produce some income, produce some taxes (which can be put to develop more alt. energy).

You talk about how it is "pointless". Well drilling each individual well on land is probably pointless too, then. Should we not allow oil copmanies to drill anywhere anymore?
Ya, im not opposed to the ANWaR drilling for that reason.

I think off-shore drilling down in florida and **** would HARM fishing, tourism and generally be not worth it. The wealth created isnt worth the downsides, especially since this entire oil game is on the way out.

You can try to exaggerate my point into something else, if you must.

If there is a new frontier for oil drilling, it will be deep ocean and greenland. I suspect there's going to be another mini-oil boom down the road but it wont dramatically change the reality that the moment peak oil hits... the **** hits the fan. Pushing that moment off by a couple decades doesnt change much.
 
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ScottTheWise13
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Old
119 - 07-29-2008, 16:39
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Originally Posted by TseTse View Post
Ya, im not opposed to the ANWaR drilling for that reason.

I think off-shore drilling down in florida and **** would HARM fishing, tourism and generally be not worth it. The wealth created isnt worth the downsides, especially since this entire oil game is on the way out.
No that is finally an argument that I think is valid. I just wanted to clarify that you have a reason other than "its pointless"

I dont know enough about existing platforms to know if thats true or not. I'll bet there will be lots of reports released in the next few months from both sides on the topic of environmental harm as the debate goes through congress.
 
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TseTse
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120 - 07-29-2008, 16:40
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Originally Posted by SPNirology View Post
I'm actually fairly sure Europe and America to a large extent will have changed their ways by the time our oil reserves start drying up that it will not effect us that much. Most of the world except maybe China and of course the middle east will probably not get hit too hard. What the **** is the middle east going to do when they run out of the only thing that basically everything else services?
It isnt even just about running out.

I'm saying that way before then... when we hit the 49% mark, the **** will hit the ****ing fan and oil could easily double in price right away. The world consumes oil as if it's an infinite supply and once we can calculate exactly how much is left... and we realize we've used half of it up... it's value will DRAMATICALLY increase.

It's going to be e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y ugly.

These oil producing nations know this is coming. Some of them are thinking very long-term and trying to diversify and modernize their societies to survive in a post-oil world, but i dont get the sense that most of them care. Their profits will INCREASE dramatically way before they decrease and vanish.

Indeed, as the price goes up... we'll be able to afford more radical production.

But none of that "we'll dig up shale in the dakotas!" stuff is going to fundamentally change the global oil peak oil issue.
 
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Reload this Page Senator Stevens (R - Alaska) Indicted

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