Malygos 10

RedSpider said:
Playing to win. = Putting forth maximum effort in an effort to succeed at a task.

Putting forth maximum effort in an effort to succeed at a task. = Getting the most possible out of your character. (Applying this to WoW.)

Getting the most possible out of your character. = Min/Maxing.

Therefore:

Playing to win. = Min/Maxing.
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5 is bigger than 4, no matter how much you may like the shape of the number 4.
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You just proved Data's point of subjectivity. You can't aptly define "win" in a never ending game. You can't Beat WoW. 5 is bigger than 4. So what? Is 4 too low to win with?

By your definition, to "win" wailing caverns, you need a group of 80's with best in slot gear. Obviously, that's overkill, but since you can't draw a quantitative line to separate what is and is not required to "win" content, your arguement comes across as nothing more than complete nerdism ment to elevate your own opinion of yourself by contrasting it to people you believe you're better than.

If you were to take Data's character into your raid's 25 Naxx run (instead of your main) do you think your raid would be unable to clear that night? Of course you would clear it.
 
Threads like this are why I can't stop reading the tw wow forums even though I don't play the game

data, if you're looking for a game where you can customize your character to whatever play style you want, look elsewhere, there are cookie cutter specs for a reason
 
I stated playing to win as putting forth maximum effort to succeed at at a task.

Raiding Naxx is a task. Raiding Naxx with the best possible group makeup where everyone is properly talented/enchanted etc. is playing to win for your 3 hr Naxx raid.

And as for wailing caverns, you're correct at assuming level 80s would be the best if the goal is:
A) The Drops
B) To Finish

The goal is experience more often than not, and bringing in 80s kills your experience. If you want gear, bring in the 80s and get the loot efficiently and succeed at your task in the most effective manner possible.
 
Atreides said:
You just proved Data's point of subjectivity. You can't aptly define "win" in a never ending game. You can't Beat WoW. 5 is bigger than 4. So what? Is 4 too low to win with?

By your definition, to "win" wailing caverns, you need a group of 80's with best in slot gear. Obviously, that's overkill, but since you can't draw a quantitative line to separate what is and is not required to "win" content, your arguement comes across as nothing more than complete nerdism ment to elevate your own opinion of yourself by contrasting it to people you believe you're better than.

If you were to take Data's character into your raid's 25 Naxx run (instead of your main) do you think your raid would be unable to clear that night? Of course you would clear it.
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Considering his guild can probably 10 man Naxx 25 I don't think that's a valid argument :shrug:. A better question would they be able to do Sarth 10 3D with him in the group.
 
FalseMyrmidon said:
Considering his guild can probably 10 man Naxx 25 I don't think that's a valid argument :shrug:. A better question would they be able to do Sarth 10 3D with him in the group.
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Yes, because we've done 20-man 3D more than once. =p
Edit: I misread your post for some reason, but the point is solid in either case.

Could we do X-man 3D where X is the lowest number we could win with while having him in the group? No.

Clearly, this isn't relevant on content that is trivial, but since this entire thread is about his guild failing to win, I think it's absolutely applicable.


Edit: And more to Atreides' point, you can most definitely win. There are different levels of winning, PvE and PvP, world-level, US-level, Battlegroup-level, Server-level, etc, but there are always winners, and there are always losers.
 
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Data seems fairly intelligent, at least the way he posts and defends himself, and I also doubt he sucks at the game (probably not a clicker, probably doesn't stand in fire, etc.), but he just seems to have a very different notion about spec and gear than most other people. Data, do you know exactly what a mage's role is in a PvE raid scenario? Do you know exactly the various stat weights in order to best perform that role? Do you know exactly the best mage abilities to use to best perform that role? Will the 3.1 dual spec feature help you at all?
 
Atreides said:
If you were to take Data's character into your raid's 25 Naxx run (instead of your main) do you think your raid would be unable to clear that night? Of course you would clear it.
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Would he be doing the absolute most dps he possible could? Would his dps be limited artificially by the choices he makes rather than the gear he's accumulated?

This would be like buying a race car but putting a limit on the top speed, then wondering why you can't win the Indy 500.

Sure, you're driving faster than the minivans you see on the way to the track, but you just can't keep up with the other cars that all have optimized engines. They're built for one thing...to go really fast. You might also be able to go fast, but maybe you've made changes to affect gas mileage and acceleration. If at the end of the day, if you can't win the race because you can't keep up with all the other cars then what was the point? Woohoo! I've made changes to the optimized engine, but I can't drive as fast as I could if my engine was like everyone else's!

Data is driving a car that he's purposely put a limit on. The cookie cutter specs on EJ were designed for maximum DPS. They can prove that it's the maximum DPS with all sorts of crazy math.

This might be well and good for him, but it's not playing to win, where winning is defined as doing the absolute best that you can do.
 
The people defending Data are henceforth to be considered terrible as well. So it shall be written, so it shall be done.
 
Just did Spider/Military/Consturct quarter with 2 healers. One had 1100 healing and I had 1300. LOL gonna clear it tomorrow. I did 60% of total healing, shammy did like 15%. I PLAY TO WIN :D
 
Jumping this over from the other thread:
Data said:
One of these reasons is correct.

Four of these reasons are incorrect.

Want to try again, or can we just assume you're stupid? 1 out of 5... mmmmmmmmm not so great.
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Lets see...

You suck: Possibly
I bet in your gear, as a FFB mage, I would still rape your fucking dps. (FFB cookie cutter vs Arcane PvE cookie cutter, FFB comes in under arcane on spreadsheets, which assume optimal gear. FFB has a greater falloff with lack of gear requirements because of rng for crit strings.) However, this is only inductive, not certain.

Your guild sucks: Yes
Refer to: This thread.

Your spec sucks: Yes
The World of Warcraft Armory Go go Imp. CS. Take that KT! Frostbolt no more!

Your gear sucks: Yes
The World of Warcraft Armory

You're too pussy to leave a guild full of bads: Yes
Refer to: This thread

You're too stuck on being 'different' in your spec (ie, not cookie cutter) to actually get a good spec: Yes
This thread, and particularly, this post.

You're too shitty of a player to get geared: Yes
Refer to: This thread. Good gear was pointed out. You called it crap, even though it was almost a complete upgrade for you. You also mention about not getting the wand you want from AN. How about you get a guild run so that you _do_ get it. Surely, your guild can handle heroics at least.
 
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heh I like "playing to win" argument. I remember being in a team for a FPS and with some of strats the leaders wanted to go with I would argue that they are playing to lose and we need to be playing to win.

It doesn't matter that you really can't beat WoW, playing to win is about doing your best and you push things has hard as you can. If you talk about Basketball and a team wins by 10 points they won, but if they were playing to win they could have beaten the other team by 30 points or more. A team can also lose while playing to win, but at least they were playing to win.

The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi would even help understand what playing to win means.
 
Data said:
No, it's more like the circumstances of the server, which I've explained several times but you all have it in your head that things are just rosy and I'm doing this to myself in some sort of masochistic... I don't even fucking know what.

Except I've made threads offering to transfer and begged for a better guild with some players from the Tribes community. You all basically told me to reroll Horde and that's a shit answer. So fuck you.
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I've offered you multiple times to join us now data, and it still stands.

Yes, you will have to reroll, but gearing is SO easy. All we'd collectively have to do is do a night of naxx25 and you'll have better gear than what you do currently. We're sitting on our thumbs right now, so if you wanted, you can level your toon and I wouldn't mind logging on to tank some stuff for you.

It's not a big deal to reroll horde, and if you haven't played a char, at least the questlines are different so it will be interesting.

You know you don't have much of a choice and at least you'd be playing with people you've known for close to a decade instead of a whole brand new guild of possible scrubs/drama queens, though we have plenty of the latter.

Honestly, I think your problem is your terrible experience with terrible guildies that can't do shit. I have 3 fully decked out toons, 2 of which I did myself. It is so easy to get gear that I don't even care if I have BiS for stuff. So maybe this is why you think it is "difficult" or a "pain in the ass to gear out" so you're not inclined to reroll.
 
Osiris said:
Just did Spider/Military/Consturct quarter with 2 healers. One had 1100 healing and I had 1300. LOL gonna clear it tomorrow. I did 60% of total healing, shammy did like 15%. I PLAY TO WIN :D
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I was going to be impressed until I realized you meant 10 man.

I one healed pretty much every wing in a PuG the other night with a druid I've played twice. Naxx is easy.

Reroll data. It is so easy to get gear.
 
Law, are you really that fucking desperate for people you would waste your time on Data? You're a bigger idiot than I thought you were.
 
DeadlyRabbit said:
The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi would even help understand what playing to win means.
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Jesus Christ please don't do that. Almost everyone I know who tried to apply eastern philosophies and texts to their own western ideals ended up horribly misreading and misinterpreting almost the entire thing and then ended up mad because "it didn't work".
 
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