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Amadeus
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201 - 10-17-2020, 20:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amRam View Post
I don't wanna keep going back to my same examples so lets stop asking for reasons why a man believes god exists.

Does the belief in god manifest itself in our shared reality? Yes, it does, by way of its impact on individuals and how they orient themselves in the real world. The effect is real, but that doesn't mean that I can draw you a diagram to explain the reasoning or origins of that belief system.
I didn't ask if the belief in god manifests. Of course it does.

I'm asking if the actual god that you believe exists manifests itself in reality in any way.

But that seems to be irrelevant, because you seem to subscribe to the notion that as long as believing in a falsehood makes you a better person, it's ok to believe in that falsehood. And I'm going to call bull**** on that, because how can you be a good person if you have a warped view of reality and the consequences of your actions within it?
 
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Falhawk
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202 - 10-17-2020, 20:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jimmy Pop View Post
It be like me trying to explain to you why I like Blink 182. Even I donít understand why I like that cheesy band.





But I do.
It's all the small things

Sent from my SM-N976U using Tapatalk
 
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amRam
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203 - 10-17-2020, 20:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
I didn't ask if the belief in god manifests. Of course it does.

I'm asking if the actual god that you believe exists manifests itself in reality in any way.

But that seems to be irrelevant, because you seem to subscribe to the notion that as long as believing in a falsehood makes you a better person, it's ok to believe in that falsehood. And I'm going to call bull**** on that, because how can you be a good person if you have a warped view of reality and the consequences of your actions within it?
There's zero evidence of the physical literal existence of a god so I'd say no, he doesn't manifest in reality probably because he isn't physically real.

Your second train of thought leads to the conclusion that there isn't a single good religious person in the world. If they all orient themselves towards a falsehood and couldn't possibly be "good" with that warped view of reality, I'm not sure what else I was supposed to infer from your statement. That conclusion is obviously false.
 
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Amadeus
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204 - 10-17-2020, 20:33
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Originally Posted by amRam View Post
There's zero evidence of the physical literal existence of a god so I'd say no, he doesn't manifest in reality probably because he isn't physically real.
And yet you claim to align yourself in accordance with this nonexistent god's ideals. Why would you take the ideals of an imaginary creature into account when making decisions about how you act in reality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amRam View Post
Your second train of thought leads to the conclusion that there isn't a single good religious person in the world. If they all orient themselves towards a falsehood and couldn't possibly be "good" with that warped view of reality, I'm not sure what else I was supposed to infer from your statement.
What you should infer is that every time you defer to your imaginary god's imaginary set of ideals or morals, you risk harming yourself or others by thinking out of line with reality.

Is there any behaviour that I couldn't justify with "my imaginary god thinks it's a good idea"? That exact thinking is why NYC has 2 less skyscrapers now.


Also, this is my cue to call bull**** on the entire concept of people aligning themselves to a deity:

Did you knew? Neurological evidence that "God's will" is bull**** by Amadeus - TribalWar Forums

Quote:
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/51/21533

[...]

cliffs:
- Put people in an fMRI machine
- Ask them what they think about X, and a certain area of the brain lights up
- Ask them what other people think about X, and a different area lights up
- Ask them what God thinks about X, and it's the first area associated with the self that lights up, not the second. Neurologically, God's will is your will.

Explains how God miraculously hates all the same people you do.
 
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LGBR
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205 - 10-17-2020, 20:40
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amram quick reminder you're associating with a known pedophile right now
 
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amRam
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206 - 10-17-2020, 20:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
And yet you claim to align yourself in accordance with this nonexistent god's ideals. Why would you take the ideals of an imaginary creature into account when making decisions about how you act in reality?

What you should infer is that every time you defer to your imaginary god's imaginary set of ideals or morals, you risk harming yourself or others by thinking out of line with reality.
I'm not religious and I don't believe in god and I don't model myself after any such ideals. Sorry to burst your bubble. I'm just interested in the topic and the exchange of ideas that comes from a good conversation. Im not trying to prove anything to you or catch you in a gotcha. Just to get that out of the way (again)

I don't think that abstracting a set of ideals and then orienting yourself towards those ideals is something inherently bad. When it goes bad, it tends to be a dead end. The proof is in the fact that there are billions of religious people in the world living in successful and productive societies.

Jesus, to Christians, is the human embodiment of a collective set of ideals that they should aspire towards. He's the ideal, and thus the judge. There is ample proof in life that having something good to aim towards makes you a better and more fulfilled person. What's wrong with that?
 
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Amadeus
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207 - 10-17-2020, 20:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amRam View Post
I'm not religious and I don't believe in god and I don't model myself after any such ideals. Sorry to burst your bubble. I'm just interested in the topic and the exchange of ideas that comes from a good conversation. Im not trying to prove anything to you or catch you in a gotcha. Just to get that out of the way (again)

I don't think that abstracting a set of ideals and then orienting yourself towards those ideals is something inherently bad. When it goes bad, it tends to be a dead end. The proof is in the fact that there are billions of religious people in the world living in successful and productive societies.

Jesus, to Christians, is the human embodiment of a collective set of ideals that they should aspire towards. He's the ideal, and thus the judge. There is ample proof in life that having something good to aim towards makes you a better and more fulfilled person. What's wrong with that?
Because those same ideologies tend to carry some aboslutely bonkers baggage from the bronze age that directly harms people, including the believers. In fact, any false statement included in that baggage has the potential to cause harm. And you can certainly align yourself towards good ideals without such baggage, millions of atheists are doing just that.

Give me one positive effect of theism that cannot also be achieved via secular means. Otherwise, achieving the positive effects of theism is not a good enough reason to be a theist.
 
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The Pumpkin King
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208 - 10-17-2020, 21:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Give me one good reaosn to be a theist please.
One good reason to be an Atheist: You have never directly experienced God.

One good reason to be a Theist: You have directly experienced God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Ok, so tell me what your "spirit in the cage" is, then provide me with hard evidence for its existence.
"religious discussion is mostly a waste of time." -My opening argument

You are asking me to engage in religious discussion with you, which is identical to asking me to waste my time.

If some random person on the internet asked you to waste your own time, would you abide? You would not. Therefore you cannot expect any different result from others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
One could demonstrate by means of monitoring brainwaves and/or hormone levels when exposed to my family, or observing how my behaviour with them differs from that with strangers. That would already be more hard evidence than I've seen for any god.
Is that what love is? A "brainwave" or a "hormone"? What is the unit of measurement for love?

Yes, you can measure "brainwaves" and "hormones", but that does not prove that love exists, nor that it can be measured.

If you can prove the existence of love and measure it, than you will win a nobel prize.

You do not have a nobel prize, because you can not prove the existence of love, nor will you ever.

There are things in this reality that cannot be measured by science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Hello god of the gaps. This argument has a terrible history of becoming less and less relevant as human knowledge expands, and every time we actually found an explanation for something, it was never one posited by any religion.
You have an interesting way of consistently arguing against someone that is not in the room. This is another big reason why I do not engage in religious discussion with most people. Most people look for these sorts of talking points, because they know how to address them. It is another indication of the "I need to win" mentality.

I'm not discussing gap theory. I'm discussing the woeful inadequacy of human scientific advancement.

If you think we are hyper advanced in terms of scientific advancement, than feel free to explain to me why we can't even leave this rock called Earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Archeological digs are not evidence of a god's existence.
Archeological digs are evidence of the historical accuracy of religious texts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
So that you don't look like someone who makes **** up and tries to act smug about being challenged on it.

There is no change of heart. With every post where you avoid exposing your beliefs to critical review, you're continuing your surrender. Again, anyone can make up a false claim and act like the world just doesn't get it, or that they're too noble to explain it to the plebs. Right now, you look like one of those people, and it's entirely your own fault.

It wasn't a dismissal, it was a prediction. One that you willingly continue to fulfill.

It would be super easy for you to demonstrate that you are not, in fact, intellectually dishonest, if that really was the case. All you'd need to do is start telling us what you believe and why.
I do not care if I look smug or whatever. You are welcome to label me however you please. You have already labeled me aggressively from the get go without even hearing what I believe, so... anyone would draw the conclusion that taking the discussion further would yield more distasteful negativity.

It doesn't take psychic powers to read someone opening their entire argument with "religious discussion is a waste of time" and guess that they will not engage in religious discussion with you. Should you be applauded for your accurate prediction that even a child with any form of reading level could have made?

The fact that I will not engage only proves that I was sincere in my stance, not the opposite.

You will continue to push the "see, the guy that says that religious discussion is a waste of time is not engaging in religious discussion, therefore he is an insincere smug turd making stuff up" when it is quite the opposite. I am being consistent in my stance.

You are right, it would be super easy for me to engage in worldview discussion, I'm great at it... What a wonderful free country where I get to personally screen and select who I engage with.

If I have already given you my "ultimate surrender" and you have achieved a mighty victory over me, why are you still engaging with me?

If you think by repeatedly baiting me and threatening me with ill-repute that you will succeed in getting me to chomp on the bit of religious discussion, you are mistaken...

...it is a waste of time, as I said.

That being said, the discussion about how religious discussion is a waste of time has been highly entertaining for me, so I appreciate you engaging with me.
 
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amRam
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209 - 10-17-2020, 21:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Because those same ideologies tend to carry some aboslutely bonkers baggage from the bronze age that directly harms people, including the believers. In fact, any false statement included in that baggage has the potential to cause harm. And you can certainly align yourself towards good ideals without such baggage, millions of atheists are doing just that.

Give me one positive effect of theism that cannot also be achieved via secular means. Otherwise, achieving the positive effects of theism is not a good enough reason to be a theist.
Some of the most heinous massacres and atrocities of our times were committed by atheists and anti-religious movements. Your claim of bronze age baggage rings irrelevant to the discussion. Its not as if the domain of human evil belongs only to people of faith. Being a person of faith doesn't magically erase all your other biological human intricacies, good or bad. You bring up 9/11, I retort with Mao and Stalin. What's the point?

I can't give you any specific positive effect of theism that can't be achieved through secular means. I can, however, posit the things you think are atheistic or secular aren't really. If every one of your human ancestors for the last 300,000 years has had some fundamental form of ritualistic belief in the unknown, how can you divorce your own moral compass from that evolutionary branch? If I'm the descendant of one thousand generations of Abrahamic faith adherents, but Im atheist, am I really atheist?
 
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Amadeus
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210 - 10-17-2020, 21:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
One good reason to be an Atheist: You have never directly experienced God.

One good reason to be a Theist: You have directly experienced God.
How can you know if you directly experienced god?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
"religious discussion is mostly a waste of time." -My opening argument

You are asking me to engage in religious discussion with you, which is identical to asking me to waste my time.

If some random person on the internet asked you to waste your own time, would you abide? You would not. Therefore you cannot expect any different result from others.
I disagree with your reason for why it's a waste of time. It wouldn't be, if only people were willing to admit when they have no good reason to believe the things they do. Then **** would start getting real productive real quick.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
Is that what love is? A "brainwave" or a "hormone"? What is the unit of measurement for love?

Yes, you can measure "brainwaves" and "hormones", but that does not prove that love exists, nor that it can be measured.

If you can prove the existence of love and measure it, than you will win a nobel prize.

You do not have a nobel prize, because you can not prove the existence of love, nor will you ever.

There are things in this reality that cannot be measured by science.
They are evidence of love. More evidence than religious people can muster for their gods, by a wide margin.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
You have an interesting way of consistently arguing against someone that is not in the room. This is another big reason why I do not engage in religious discussion with most people. Most people look for these sorts of talking points, because they know how to address them. It is another indication of the "I need to win" mentality.

I'm not discussing gap theory. I'm discussing the woeful inadequacy of human scientific advancement.

If you think we are hyper advanced in terms of scientific advancement, than feel free to explain to me why we can't even leave this rock called Earth.
And yet, science has already achieved immeasurably more than religious belief ever did. None of the technological advancement of the last 10k years was a result of prayer.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pumpkin King View Post
Archeological digs are evidence of the historical accuracy of religious texts.
Correct. And the historical accuracy of religious texts is not evidence for a god. Just like if people in the distant future find a Spiderman comic set in New York, then dig up the remains of New York, it's not evidence that Spiderman existed.
 
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havax
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211 - 10-17-2020, 21:53
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What a damn waste of time. You're not going to convince a pedophile that there is a God or a reason to believe in God, so why waste your time?
 
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The Pumpkin King
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212 - 10-17-2020, 22:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
How can you know if you directly experienced god?
Wonderful, so by proceeding with this question you agree that I gave you a good reason.

You stated that 100 people you spoke with gave you no good reason, so I'm happy to be the first.

I guess it was very easy for me to succeed where 100 other people failed.

Makes me wonder who you were talking to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
I disagree with your reason for why it's a waste of time. It wouldn't be, if only people were willing to admit when they have no good reason to believe the things they do. Then **** would start getting real productive real quick.
You are welcome to disagree.

I disagree with the notion that you are actually seeking productivity.

People interested in having productive conversation are usually polite and respectful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
They are evidence of love. More evidence than religious people can muster for their gods, by a wide margin.
Nope, love doesn't exist according to your worldview. After all, if you can't prove that something exists scientifically, it doesn't, right? If you are to remain consistent, you now no longer believe in the existence of love.

The evidence towards the religion of secular humanism that you prescribe too is far more lacking from a scientific perspective than theism by a wide margin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
And yet, science has already achieved immeasurably more than religious belief ever did. None of the technological advancement of the last 10k years was a result of prayer.
Yeah, all those great scientists, like Newton, the guy that discovered gravity.

Spoiler alert:
Spoiler


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Correct. And the historical accuracy of religious texts is not evidence for a god. Just like if people in the distant future find a Spiderman comic set in New York, then dig up the remains of New York, it's not evidence that Spiderman existed.
If someone lied to you 9 times, what would you predict about the 10th thing they said?

Similarly, if a stranger told you a story, and you could confirm 9 out of 10 facts presented in that story were true, what might you assume about the 10th that was unconfirmed?

There is a reason that the historical accuracy matters to someone that has a logical, critical, scientific mind.

Comparing Spiderman to historical documentation? Really?

You are actually making the case that because Spiderman isn't real, historical documentation has no validity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by havax View Post
What a damn waste of time.
Of this we can agree.
 
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Brasstax
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213 - 10-17-2020, 23:08
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What if I was to tell all of you that God is the hottest chick imaginable? She is very choosy. She will only bang one guy from every planet she creates. She chose me. And it was good. When I broke up with her, she went through a tough patch. Now, we are just friends. Too much drama.
 
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Zanthious
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214 - 10-17-2020, 23:10
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ITT posters refuse to allow TW to die and try to create content by making stupid threads.
 
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The Pumpkin King
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215 - 10-17-2020, 23:19
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Originally Posted by Brasstax View Post
What if I was to tell all of you that God is the hottest chick imaginable? She is very choosy. She will only bang one guy from every planet she creates. She chose me. And it was good. When I broke up with her, she went through a tough patch. Now, we are just friends. Too much drama.
I donno, probably that none of that is true because of Spiderman?



Still, sounds more plausible to me than secular humanism, where "nothing" exploded into a bunch of spinning rocks, only one of them with pondscum that grew and developed itself into a bipedal creature that faps to Russian models with plastic surgery on instagram.
 
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Brasstax
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216 - 10-17-2020, 23:20
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Originally Posted by Zanthious View Post
ITT posters refuse to allow TW to die and try to create content by making stupid threads.
 
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Fool
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217 - 10-18-2020, 01:40
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StapleMammal1
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218 - 10-18-2020, 03:29
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Originally Posted by amRam View Post
There's zero evidence of the physical literal existence of a god
Go look at a mirror, dumbass.
 
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Brasstax
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219 - 10-18-2020, 04:47
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I define God as:

The set of everything that was, is, will be and everything else.

I am terrified of not believing in it.
 
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amRam
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220 - 10-18-2020, 09:30
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Originally Posted by StapleMammal1 View Post
Go look at a mirror, dumbass.
Just did, and you may be right. This could only be God's work.
 
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