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Reload this Page Why does everyone have to be a Democrat or a Republican?
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lemon
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Old
101 - 08-05-2020, 13:05
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angsty feels
 
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havax
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102 - 08-05-2020, 13:32
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Originally Posted by bowl of blood View Post
can you explain how trump is not a republican? this is what I have so far.

- he won the republican national convention's primary election in 2016.
- he was put in the presidential race by the republican national convention.
- he did not run as an independent or a former democrat.
- he was the only presidential candidate fielded by the republicans in 2016.
- he is thus far the only presidential candidate fielded by the republicans in 2020.

if trump isn't a republican, shouldn't the republicans be running someone for president? that's not usually something they sit out.

maybe you are trying to say he is not a conservative (nor does he have any consistent ideology). however the republican party is a group of people who have agreed to share a label, it is not loyal to any ideology. as is frequently observed by modern republicans, the democrat party was the home of conservatives in the late 19th and early 20th centuries ("party of slavery"), while the republicans were progressives.
this is a ****ing DUMB AS **** post. i mean, a lot of typing for nothing.

yes, i meant he is not a republican in the ideologue sense. but you already knew that, and decided to waste everyone's time anyway.
 
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SeVeReD
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103 - 08-05-2020, 13:41
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Originally Posted by Mr Jimmy Pop View Post
Mitch, this is by far the biggest plague in America. The Two party illusion is the biggest fraud ever.
I want the parties that support National Democratic Rule-driven Capitalism,
and parties that are only willing to trade/support with National Democratic Rule-driven Capitalist countries.

Is that too much to ask for?
 
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Validuz
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Old
104 - 08-05-2020, 17:19
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Originally Posted by Denver View Post
multiparty system is working for quite many other countries... maybe you could give it a swirl...

also unity2020!
Is it though? Are there any other countries more conservative/free than America with a different system of government?

It seems like almost every other countries' different system is far more left and controlling.
 
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groove
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105 - 08-05-2020, 18:22
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Originally Posted by spockhammer View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL3i7zfSonc
dang i'd forgotten about rascalz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN6jcMruHfA
 
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MC Hamster
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106 - 08-05-2020, 19:12
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Originally Posted by Fool View Post
When people start with and spend four years arguing that he's a tiny handed, racist, sexist, xenophobic, Hitlerian facist dictator who is going to start nuclear war if we don't jail him fast enough for working with a foreign government to rig an election, you sort of stop thinking that they're capable of having a reasonable, rational discussion on policy even when you occasionally agree.
I agree, going to the levels that some seem to does wind up being counter-productive. That said, the guy is absolutely racist, absolutely sexist, and honestly people that can't see some significant parallels between how his administration has operated and the earlier years of the Nazi party, they might need to go read a history book. That's not saying his next step is building gas chambers or anything, but there are certainly some uncomfortable similarities. (And have you seen his hands??? :p )

Like I noted though, a lot of those qualities are present in a lot of us, and that probably has a lot to do with that "he tells it like it is" supporter mentality, even when he's seemingly constantly caught in lie after lie. That's also part of that "representing the worst of America" that detractors sometimes claim of him, too.

But yeah, I can understand this dissatisfaction with 'establishment' politicians. That's not a purely American thing. I can fully appreciate not wanting to put Hillary in the White House. Donald Trump is a hell of an extreme reaction to that though, and when he's done, it's looking like ('looking like', I'm not going to count any chickens just yet) you're going to wind up pretty much back where you began, with the last guy's deputy stepping up to the plate to continue where they left off after trying to put some of the broken bits back together.

History's view on his term will probably remain as split as it is now. Good or ill, there are stats out there people can pick up to say all sorts of things. I'm thinking one thing that he will be remembered for though is being one of the most divisive leaders you guys have had. His schoolyard name-calling and bullying, and egging on his supporters in some truly appalling behaviour is certainly something that will be remembered for quite a while, I think.
 
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Denver
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107 - 08-05-2020, 19:17
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Originally Posted by Validuz View Post
Is it though? Are there any other countries more conservative/free than America with a different system of government?

It seems like almost every other countries' different system is far more left and controlling.
define freedom?

for example finnish passport is the most accepted passport in the world. aka you have much more freedom to travel than with US passports...

also covid-19 stuff, our government did heavy lock down for a month and got the virus under control (leftist government with power fantasies), now we're way out of lock down, situation is normalised and there's no government restrictions any more. Your situation is much worse.

some things seem to work relatively well when socialised (like your fire department). Or would you like to go back to the days when you needed to have an insignia on your yard to signal to fire squads it's okay to extinguish fire on your yard. Whilst your neighbour burned, because of no payment?
 
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MC Hamster
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108 - 08-05-2020, 19:38
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It's also amusing how he uses "conservative" and "free" like they're synonyms.

How's those abortion laws doing? Same sex marriage? Drug policy?

Sorry, but "the left" is not the only source of authoritarian policy going around. Maybe you personally don't agree with some of those conservative/right-wing policies, but that doesn't mean they're not right wing, and that doesn't mean it's not authoritarian. Freedom is not the exclusive domain of the right. There's plenty there on the other side of the floor, too.
 
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Fool
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109 - 08-05-2020, 19:41
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Originally Posted by MC Hamster View Post
I agree, going to the levels that some seem to does wind up being counter-productive. That said, the guy is absolutely racist, absolutely sexist, and honestly people that can't see some significant parallels between how his administration has operated and the earlier years of the Nazi party, they might need to go read a history book. That's not saying his next step is building gas chambers or anything, but there are certainly some uncomfortable similarities. (And have you seen his hands??? :p )

Like I noted though, a lot of those qualities are present in a lot of us, and that probably has a lot to do with that "he tells it like it is" supporter mentality, even when he's seemingly constantly caught in lie after lie. That's also part of that "representing the worst of America" that detractors sometimes claim of him, too.

But yeah, I can understand this dissatisfaction with 'establishment' politicians. That's not a purely American thing. I can fully appreciate not wanting to put Hillary in the White House. Donald Trump is a hell of an extreme reaction to that though, and when he's done, it's looking like ('looking like', I'm not going to count any chickens just yet) you're going to wind up pretty much back where you began, with the last guy's deputy stepping up to the plate to continue where they left off after trying to put some of the broken bits back together.

History's view on his term will probably remain as split as it is now. Good or ill, there are stats out there people can pick up to say all sorts of things. I'm thinking one thing that he will be remembered for though is being one of the most divisive leaders you guys have had. His schoolyard name-calling and bullying, and egging on his supporters in some truly appalling behaviour is certainly something that will be remembered for quite a while, I think.
I think everything you've just said is an example of how interpretive everyone has become. We establish our views, and then interpret everything as evidence that supports our preestablished conclusion. When Donald Trump stops travel from 7 countries, it's a muslim ban. When Obama suggested the list, it was for national security purposes.

For a more current example, let's take a few things Joe Biden has said. "unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point," or how about "We already have a n****r mayor and we don’t need another n*****r bigshot," while quoting someone. Or "They are beyond the pale many of those people, beyond the pale, and it's a sad commentary on society. We have no choice but to take them out of society." "If we don't, they will, or a portion of them, will become the predators 15 years from now."

Now say for the sake of argument it was Donald Trump who said those exact words instead. It wouldn't matter what he meant by jungle. It wouldn't matter that he was quoting someone else. It wouldn't matter that he was simply talking about statistically true aspects of crime in the united states. All of it would be painted as evidence of horrific levels of systemic racism. But the same people who would be enraged about it from Donald Trump don't give two ****s that it came from Joe Biden.

As far as "lie after lie" it never bothered me, nor do I think it bothers anyone from the right. He was always a salesman. He was always a liar. From my perspective, I never expected him to bring honor and integrity back, I expected him to call out other people on their bull****. The same sanctimonious assholes who speak out of both sides of their mouths. The entrenched bureaucrats who go on MSNBC to tell a sociopathic "journalist", who literally publish lie after lie while claiming their honorable profession can't be criticized, to imply there is evidence of something while at the same time testifying behind closed doors to their own party that they have no evidence of anything. It's ****ing gross, and I'm tired of all of them.
 
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havax
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110 - 08-05-2020, 20:06
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Originally Posted by Fool View Post
I think everything you've just said is an example of how interpretive everyone has become. We establish our views, and then interpret everything as evidence that supports our preestablished conclusion. When Donald Trump stops travel from 7 countries, it's a muslim ban. When Obama suggested the list, it was for national security purposes.

For a more current example, let's take a few things Joe Biden has said. "unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point," or how about "We already have a n****r mayor and we don’t need another n*****r bigshot," while quoting someone. Or "They are beyond the pale many of those people, beyond the pale, and it's a sad commentary on society. We have no choice but to take them out of society." "If we don't, they will, or a portion of them, will become the predators 15 years from now."

Now say for the sake of argument it was Donald Trump who said those exact words instead. It wouldn't matter what he meant by jungle. It wouldn't matter that he was quoting someone else. It wouldn't matter that he was simply talking about statistically true aspects of crime in the united states. All of it would be painted as evidence of horrific levels of systemic racism. But the same people who would be enraged about it from Donald Trump don't give two ****s that it came from Joe Biden.

As far as "lie after lie" it never bothered me, nor do I think it bothers anyone from the right. He was always a salesman. He was always a liar. From my perspective, I never expected him to bring honor and integrity back, I expected him to call out other people on their bull****. The same sanctimonious assholes who speak out of both sides of their mouths. The entrenched bureaucrats who go on MSNBC to tell a sociopathic "journalist", who literally publish lie after lie while claiming their honorable profession can't be criticized, to imply there is evidence of something while at the same time testifying behind closed doors to their own party that they have no evidence of anything. It's ****ing gross, and I'm tired of all of them.
this exactly.

but also...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MC Hamster
That said, the guy is absolutely racist
alright, so you think he's "absolutely" racist. cool. i'll challenge you like i challenge everyone else that says this nonsense. why is he a racist? what did he say or do that makes him racist? i've watched him from the get go, and i can't find a single thing that makes him racist. in fact, i find more things that he's said or done that makes him NOT racist. so please, show me why you think he is racist, thanks.
 
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Validuz
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111 - 08-05-2020, 20:07
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Originally Posted by MC Hamster View Post
It's also amusing how he uses "conservative" and "free" like they're synonyms.

How's those abortion laws doing? Same sex marriage? Drug policy?

Sorry, but "the left" is not the only source of authoritarian policy going around. Maybe you personally don't agree with some of those conservative/right-wing policies, but that doesn't mean they're not right wing, and that doesn't mean it's not authoritarian. Freedom is not the exclusive domain of the right. There's plenty there on the other side of the floor, too.
You're conflating social conservatism with government conservatism. Drug wars are not conservative. Marriage laws are not conservative.

And finally and most importantly, abortion isn't a freedom, issue, retard. It's so intellectually dishonest and despicable to ignore the fact that an unborn child is not a simple black and white issue of "women's freedom."

The term conservative is too broad, which is why I said what countries are more free. Freedom of speech, freedom to defend yourself from anyone, including the government, etc. These are paramount to freedom. Without them, the rest doesn't matter, which is why the left wants to crush both.
 
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MC Hamster
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112 - 08-05-2020, 21:45
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Originally Posted by Validuz View Post
You're conflating social conservatism with government conservatism. Drug wars are not conservative. Marriage laws are not conservative.
I'm conflating social with government because they're inexorably connected. Those issues are absolutely right-wing/conservative (and yes, those are synonymous) positions. They're also authoritarian. They may not be position you personally agree with, and since you seem to identify as a conservative, you're naturally eager to separate them from what you identify with, but that again just highlights the stupidity of trying to put everything on a "left/right" scale, which is what this whole thread is about.

There is left/right economic policy, there is progressive/conservative social policy, and there is authoritarian/free rights policy. There's a bunch of other ones out there as well if you want to get right down into it. Point is, it's a lot more than just "left" or "right", and tying them to political parties unnecessarily conflates other axes in attempting to overlay them along party lines. It's simplistic, and it's wrong.

Quote:
And finally and most importantly, abortion isn't a freedom, issue, retard.
Yes, it is, and please try to keep it civil. This is not personal.

Quote:
It's so intellectually dishonest and despicable to ignore the fact that an unborn child is not a simple black and white issue of "women's freedom."
I never suggested it was simple, or specifically about "women's freedom", but it is a freedom and it is something strongly resisted by the political right, trying to enforce government authority on its citizens.

Quote:
The term conservative is too broad, which is why I said what countries are more free. Freedom of speech, freedom to defend yourself from anyone, including the government, etc. These are paramount to freedom.
Very hard to get anything that's equivocal on something as nebulous as that. It's important to remember that while yes, various constitutions have a whole bunch of those things in writing, a lot of that is significantly altered by case law and precedents shifting things around, as well as a disconnect in the enforcement of that.

That said, there's the "Reporters without Borders" organisation who rate different nations based on their levels of press freedom, which is a pretty good measure of freedom of speech. The USA comes in reasonably well there, but it's by no means at the top. 'Leftist' Scandanavia leads the way there, with most of Europe also doing better than the USA. New Zealand, Australia and Canada are all also rated higher. You'll probably disagree (I might, as well), but the point in there is that it's largely a matter of opinion. The US is not a stand-alone shining beacon of free speech, alone in a world of repression.

As far as protection from the government goes, you have an awful lot of citizens out there right now being well and truly shat on by the government. You have one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world. We certainly have our own faults here in Australia as well and I'm not going to pretend we're any better, but even with all that second amendment firepower and "against tyranny" rhetoric, in practice I'd suggest the average citizen of the USA is far more subject to governmental authority than, for example, those leftist Scandanavian states I mentioned before.

Quote:
Without them, the rest doesn't matter, which is why the left wants to crush both.
No, "the left" does not want to crush either. Some might, some don't. Stop buying into the partisan bull****.
 
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Last edited by MC Hamster; 08-05-2020 at 22:53..
lemon
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Old
113 - 08-05-2020, 22:15
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nice essay retard
 
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groove
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114 - 08-05-2020, 22:21
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lemon on a chain with the v-cut YEAH
 
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uno
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115 - 08-05-2020, 22:28
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At your age in IT if you weren't making 6 figures 10+ years ago...

Then again I realize you are a pik developer. I worked with people who programmed in an outdated language and they become very comfortable just waiting for retirement.
You are banging your chest in comparison to NGFM.

Speak volumes about YOUR self esteem Fal.
 
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Gandalf
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116 - 08-06-2020, 00:18
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Originally Posted by MC Hamster View Post
I agree, going to the levels that some seem to does wind up being counter-productive. That said, the guy is absolutely racist, absolutely sexist, and honestly people that can't see some significant parallels between how his administration has operated and the earlier years of the Nazi party, they might need to go read a history book. That's not saying his next step is building gas chambers or anything, but there are certainly some uncomfortable similarities. (And have you seen his hands??? :p )

Like I noted though, a lot of those qualities are present in a lot of us, and that probably has a lot to do with that "he tells it like it is" supporter mentality, even when he's seemingly constantly caught in lie after lie. That's also part of that "representing the worst of America" that detractors sometimes claim of him, too.

But yeah, I can understand this dissatisfaction with 'establishment' politicians. That's not a purely American thing. I can fully appreciate not wanting to put Hillary in the White House. Donald Trump is a hell of an extreme reaction to that though, and when he's done, it's looking like ('looking like', I'm not going to count any chickens just yet) you're going to wind up pretty much back where you began, with the last guy's deputy stepping up to the plate to continue where they left off after trying to put some of the broken bits back together.

History's view on his term will probably remain as split as it is now. Good or ill, there are stats out there people can pick up to say all sorts of things. I'm thinking one thing that he will be remembered for though is being one of the most divisive leaders you guys have had. His schoolyard name-calling and bullying, and egging on his supporters in some truly appalling behaviour is certainly something that will be remembered for quite a while, I think.
Winner of the stupidest post of the year.
 
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Brasstax
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117 - 08-06-2020, 00:46
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Originally Posted by Fool View Post
I think everything you've just said is an example of how interpretive everyone has become. We establish our views, and then interpret everything as evidence that supports our preestablished conclusion. When Donald Trump stops travel from 7 countries, it's a muslim ban. When Obama suggested the list, it was for national security purposes.

For a more current example, let's take a few things Joe Biden has said. "unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point," or how about "We already have a n****r mayor and we don’t need another n*****r bigshot," while quoting someone. Or "They are beyond the pale many of those people, beyond the pale, and it's a sad commentary on society. We have no choice but to take them out of society." "If we don't, they will, or a portion of them, will become the predators 15 years from now."

Now say for the sake of argument it was Donald Trump who said those exact words instead. It wouldn't matter what he meant by jungle. It wouldn't matter that he was quoting someone else. It wouldn't matter that he was simply talking about statistically true aspects of crime in the united states. All of it would be painted as evidence of horrific levels of systemic racism. But the same people who would be enraged about it from Donald Trump don't give two ****s that it came from Joe Biden.

As far as "lie after lie" it never bothered me, nor do I think it bothers anyone from the right. He was always a salesman. He was always a liar. From my perspective, I never expected him to bring honor and integrity back, I expected him to call out other people on their bull****. The same sanctimonious assholes who speak out of both sides of their mouths. The entrenched bureaucrats who go on MSNBC to tell a sociopathic "journalist", who literally publish lie after lie while claiming their honorable profession can't be criticized, to imply there is evidence of something while at the same time testifying behind closed doors to their own party that they have no evidence of anything. It's ****ing gross, and I'm tired of all of them.
Example:

Note - for whatever reason - this story appears hardly anywhere.


Quote:
Marni faces backlash for racist ‘jungle mood’ campaign
Featuring problematic imagery and equally problematic messaging

Marni is facing backlash for its newly-released flip-flop campaign, which features a number of Black models in problematic ensembles alongside a bunch of equally problematic statements.

Unleashed on the world yesterday via Instagram, and spotted soon after by Diet Prada, the images depict models wearing a series of ‘ethnic’ items including woven grass hats, chunky wooden Bayong necklaces, and piles of bangles – none of which, noted DP, form part of the Italian label’s latest collection (go figure).

Elsewhere, in a photograph that has since been deleted from Marni’s IG account, one model is photographed with large chains near to their feet, which, unless you look incredibly closely, resemble shackles. Another has their skin painted with clay patterns.

But just when you think it couldn’t get any worse, it does. Finishing the whole thing off was an email send-out featuring a series of the images finished with statements reading “Jungle mood”, “Barefoot in the jungle”, and “Tribal amulet”(!) which are seemingly intended to convey the flip-flop campaign’s mood and themes, but instead serve to reinforce archaic racist and colonial stereotypes.

Surprisingly, the campaign was lensed by Afro-Braziliian photographer Edgar Azevedo, and art-directed by Giovanni Bianco, who is Brazilian-Italian. As Diet Prada put it in their own IG post: “Was something lost in translation? More context provided by the brand to explain the vision and collaboration with the photographer could have helped in this situation, but needless to say, the damage was done when the marketing team decided on those words.” The product shots of flip flops superimposed over the models don’t exactly help.
Marni racist flip flip campaign SS20 Diet Prada
@diet_prada

In the post’s comments, people were quick to call out the brand, with some asking what percentage of Black people Marni employs, and others questioning how the campaign was signed-off and released. Seemingly, the brand isn’t paying too much attention to the backlash, given an image which features a white, jewel-encrusted flip-flop placed in front of a Black model alongside a caption reading “The adorned White Queen appeared compliant yet sculptural” remained on its own IG. Truly, the fashion industry never ceases to amaze.

Of course, it’s not the first time something like this has happened, with the language used reminiscent of that for the press notes of Valentino’s SS16 show – which was also condemned. Elsewhere, Gucci and Prada both faced backlash over racist products in 2018. In response, the labels set up diversity and inclusion boards, with Prada employees around the world also undergoing racial sensitivity training. With fashion currently facing a reckoning when it comes to dismantling the systemic racism that underpins the industry, it seems Marni could do to follow in their footsteps.

UPDATE 30/7/2020: After removing all traces of the campaign from Instagram, Marni has issued a statement in which it apologises for the harm and offense the campaign caused, with Creative Director Francesco Risso also posting an acknowledgement on his personal IG account. Read the brand’s full statement and see Risso’s post below.

“What was intended to be a campaign that celebrated the beauty of the Afro-Brazilian culture through the lens of Brazilian photographer Edgar Azevedo had the opposite impact. Our oversights across the review process are unacceptable – and for that we are incredibly sorry.

The team at Marni is passionately committed to championing equity and celebrating the beauty of diverse cultures throughout the world. As we endeavor to create a more equitable world, through fashion and shared humanity, we sincerely regret that our efforts caused further pain. We have removed these images and we are redoubling our efforts to ensure our processes are carried out with thoughtfulness and intentionality through a strong equity lens. Our entire staff is committed to using this moment as an opportunity to leverage our platform to support and empower more voices and creators of color whose talent and insights are instrumental to creating a more inclusive and diverse fashion industry.”
This is the Brazillian photographer who they eviscerated...


Talk about censorship and oppression.
 
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Plasmatic
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118 - 08-06-2020, 02:08
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Originally Posted by StapleMammal1 View Post
my simple answer
Spoiler
 
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Mitchdubai
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119 - 08-06-2020, 03:11
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Seems I inadvertently created a thread that would identify both sides of a different clear divide than I had intended, I.e. intelligent posters / outright obvious ****wits.

So thanks Lemon and Plasmatic for helping us out with that. And thanks to most of the rest of you for some proper intelligent debate. A refreshing change for TW.
 
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StapleMammal1
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120 - 08-06-2020, 10:32
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Originally Posted by bowl of blood View Post
obama was popular bc he didn't have to pay for *****
One doesn't have to pay for ***** if they are a treasonous ****** like Obama is.
 
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