Originally Posted by Stuttrboy

You say testable data outweighs eyewitness testimony, but then fail to provide any testable data to contradict and "outweigh" my eyewitness testimony. I ask you to provide this after you stated you could "outweigh" my evidence and this is your comeback?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_belief

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_men_make_a_tiger

Originally Posted by escapedturkey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

I guess you can apply this where you wish, when it does what you want it to do. If your going to quote from Wikipedia, I suggest you get familliar with particle physics because then your world will be turned upside down.

Originally Posted by Togowack

Well let me ask you about your heart. See reading your post I get the feeling you held back. If you have an attitude problem with God and lie to him asking him for help all the while believe that he is wrong, I bet he won't be that inclined to answer.

If you are going to take my advice, I suggest that you draw a line. I mean you get truthful and stop the BS. God wants a personal relationship, and tell me, do you BS your best friend when looking for advice.

I could bring all sorts of arguments to the table. But what you need to do, is have a heartfelt conversation with God, tell him exactly what you tell me and let it all out though. This is the best way to handle it.

However if your insincere, and really aren't willing to give him a chance, don't be expecting much.

This is the standard spiel you get from religion when you make the statements you made Gil. In my opinion it's a bunch of crap, because it does two things. First it places the guilt squarely on your shoulders, telling you it's your fault and if you REALLY wanted you could have heard and secondly it makes the assumption that they are "in the know" as if they know you intimately the thing is it's the same thing for every person who says the things you did, and possibly for some of the people they say that to it is true. I believe other things can be blamed. It is possible you have a underdeveloped perception of the "Veil" (this is my personal term for the spirit world or whatever you want to call it), if this is the case, practice makes perfect.

Altering your state of mind to get into practice is often used as a shortcut to pierce the veil in most religions. Native Americans used Peyote and "shrooms" for their mystical experiences (Studies at John's Hopkins show that using so-called magic mushrooms can increase your sensitivity to things spiritual and increase your sense of well-being). Christianity suggests fasting, Buddhism suggests meditation, etc. Failing this, Perhaps God simply does not feel you are ready.

The difference is I'm a real person that has done this and can attest to its truthfulness by my life at this time. From personal experience I can tell you what the bible says is true.

Some people make it complicated and think God requires you to understand all sorts of complicated concepts that people draw out of the bible. It's very simple though. I worked at a factory and didn't want to put up with other peoples **** anymore.

I don't take any drugs. I was persistent in asking God to help me out, and he surely has every time. Especially if you know what it says in the bible and make a point of following it, you will get somewhere.

If you are persistent in asking the Lord for answers to your questions you will get answers, guaranteed. The thing is, most times people aren't expecting to get the answers that they get. That's because he tends give you answers that are life changing. This really messes with some people and they automatically shut it off.

So if you mean business, go right ahead and press on.

Originally Posted by Togowack

I guess you can apply this where you wish, when it does what you want it to do. If your going to quote from Wikipedia, I suggest you get familliar with particle physics because then your world will be turned upside down.

It does work both ways on that one. However, I'm not claiming god does or doesn't exist. I'm merely requesting some kind of empirical evidence, not hearsay or 'eye-witness' testimonies.

Once you get enough answered prayers behind you, you start to develop a relationship. This is like me trying to tell you how to own players in T2 without you having the game or tried to even play. It's meaningless jibber jabber.

At this point in my life I have had at least 3 major prayers answered. This is a measurable, recorded thing for me. People often don't realize God deals in specific ways, and if you ask him something specific, you will get a specific answer.

I remember when I prayed for a jeep. When I got the jeep, I recalled praying six months earlier for that exact jeep, that included details like the motor, year, suspension, and vehicle color. Of course I had been continually asking for A JEEP, but when I got one, that particular SPECIFIC prayer came to light.

There have been many more examples like this. Right now I work the best job in the world because of it. But God isn't finished with me yet.

Originally Posted by escapedturkey

It does work both ways on that one. However, I'm not claiming god does or doesn't exist. I'm merely requesting some kind of empirical evidence, not hearsay or 'eye-witness' testimonies.

That's the thing. I am very passionate about my faith, and am turned off by so called believers who try to sell this faith without having any faith of their own to begin with.

These kinds of people frustrate me and I'll tear them a new one before I'll tear unbelievers a new one, because these kinds of believers have no real reasons to answer questions posed by unbelievers.

Originally Posted by Togowack

Well let me ask you about your heart. See reading your post I get the feeling you held back. If you have an attitude problem with God and lie to him asking him for help all the while believe that he is wrong, I bet he won't be that inclined to answer.

If you are going to take my advice, I suggest that you draw a line. I mean you get truthful and stop the BS. God wants a personal relationship, and tell me, do you BS your best friend when looking for advice.

I could bring all sorts of arguments to the table. But what you need to do, is have a heartfelt conversation with God, tell him exactly what you tell me and let it all out though. This is the best way to handle it.

However if your insincere, and really aren't willing to give him a chance, don't be expecting much.

So you believe I asked for something, didn't get it, and stopped believing? You think I'm a spoiled child.

When I was young, I did everything I could for the church. I assisted during ministries, helped with weekly programs, sang in the choir, and worked with many projects, like vacation bible school. I did all of this, prayed every morning and night (and often a few times between) and I was charitable, kind, and giving in school and at home. I read the bible at least once or twice a year; this doesn't sound like much but consider how often an 8 or 14 year old usually does this.

But I never felt god. I never felt loved (by him or my parents). If anything, I was losing out. My devoutness was one of the main reasons I was so heavily ostracized, even by people at church. I began to realize that I was on the losing side of everything I did, and my one-sided commitment to my religion was causing me to be the sort of person that so many people tolerated only as long as they had to.


In the past 6 years, I've been getting used to the idea that I'm not a "bad" person, simply for existing. That I'm not evil because I drink and smoke. That I'm not going to hell because I get mad at people, or because I make others mad at me. I'm still trying to get used to making myself a priority, making time for myself and not marginalizing my own needs for others.


I don't mean to come down on you for the religious beliefs that benefit you. I understand that your religious choice made a definitive life change for you, and you want everyone else to benefit as you did. I want to provide a counter-point to this, to express the problems I've had with religion, not to try to persuade you to stop believing.

Originally Posted by escapedturkey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_belief

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_men_make_a_tiger

I'm having issue with you discounting my evidence by claiming that non-eyewitness proof outweighs the million plus eye-witness testimonies, yet fail to provide said proof.

You are the one re-asserting the same old song and dance every time I give a counter-argument. So yeah it's a logical fallacy, quite using it.

Appeal to belief has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Are you really this stupid or are you trolling? I'm not talking about a million Christians who believe God exists so it must be true, I'm stating there have been millions of people who have testified that they had personally been effected in some way by the supernatural. I am talking about Eye-witness testimony.

This last one is a nice story and is a good piece of wisdom but I fail to see how a man warning his employer of the possibility of people badmouthing him while he was away has anything to do with this discussion. These little stories cut both ways. If you are going to use this as evidence that my eye-witnesses are unreliable then I will use the same ones to show you that makes science just as unreliable. Funny thing is I happen to believe in both those belief systems.

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."
-- Socrates

Originally Posted by escapedturkey

It does work both ways on that one. However, I'm not claiming god does or doesn't exist. I'm merely requesting some kind of empirical evidence, not hearsay or 'eye-witness' testimonies.

Eye-witness testimony is Empirical evidence. God isn't some force you can measure and test in a lab. The proper method of discussing God is with metaphysics not science.

Do you believe aliens are visiting Earth? There are plenty of eye-witness testimonies of sightings and abductions. Has there been any empirical evidence? No.

You keep implying I'm trying to prove something, even though I'm not. Eye-witness testimony is not empirical evidence. I'm requesting empirical evidence, period.

These are all just benefits to have answered prayer. To be truthful, none of these things did me any good. The jeep just sucked all my time and kinda made me miserable. The job isn't the best job, but it is what I asked for and has been a help.

All I can really say at this point is to pick up a bible, read it and seek God. Participating in church programs isn't going to do much, except for to get you around other people.

TBH, a catholic church isn't the best place to start either. The catholic religion tends to teach that you will recieve a good reward for good deeds done and feel good about it. Well, its no different than volunteering for anything else. Many catholic believers have Jesus in the heart so I don't knock them, but in general the religion teaches that you have to do certain things to attain redemption.

If you read the bible, you will find this isn't true, the disciples were changed through learning and believing. I read the bible quite often and pray often as possible, and it changes your heart. You need to spend time praying and reading. In the end it is your ability to believe, or have faith, that will get you where you want to be.

And reading the word will be what gets you there, and on a persistent basis.

I'm going to bed, so I'll just rant a bit more. Your heart is your well spring of life. Jesus says your cup should be filled to overflowing. This is really what your looking for, and it will make your life a wonderful thing to live. Rather than doing these things that men tell you to do, by believing, Jesus himself will fill you with a certain kind of life which surpasses understanding.

You need to have a pure heart in order to allow this life to flow into you. People with hate and anger in their heart will never be happy. But people that found what they want in life are generally happy, but not to overflowing as the word describes.

It is a hard to find this. Most christians, including me, have a hard time with it. That's because it involves making some hard life decisions, which can tear your life apart. Essentially though, there is a price to be paid, but the bible says it is worth it.

sipher is trolling right?

No mostly just escapedturkey. I don't think he's actually responded here in quite a while.

Originally Posted by Stuttrboy

Eye-witness testimony is Empirical evidence.

Now you are re-defining what you think words mean. You might as well start a new language while you're at it.

Originally Posted by escapedturkey

Now you are re-defining what you think words mean. You might as well start a new language while you're at it.

You are a stupid moron member.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical

A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses.

Sight is a sense. Eyewitness testimony is empirical evidence. It's just not the evidence you want.

Edit: I'm done feeding the trolls tonight, my bed is calling to me.

"Empirical" as an adjective or adverb is used in conjunction with both the natural and social sciences, and refers to the use of working hypotheses that are testable using observation or experiment. In this sense of the word, scientific statements are subject to and derived from our experiences or observations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical

Eye-witness testimonies and hearsay are not reproducible nor testable.

Originally Posted by Togowack

The bible says to test God. As an unbeliever, you can either test him and prove it true, or take a step back and say 'I don't want to test this, I am **** scared.' In that case, you have a problem on your hands.

We have tested god - he failed the scientific method

Originally Posted by Togowack

I remember when I prayed for a jeep. When I got the jeep, I recalled praying six months earlier for that exact jeep, that included details like the motor, year, suspension, and vehicle color. Of course I had been continually asking for A JEEP, but when I got one, that particular SPECIFIC prayer came to light.

All through my young life, my parents and my church taught that it was wrong to have sexual feelings for other people unless you were married. When I was 12, I saw a couple of my classmates start to get a little close. I realized that I would probably like that. (this is when I first "started noticing girls") Before this, and for a long time after, I thought my classmates were as innocent as I was. Being attracted to them was bad, and why would anyone want to be bad?

About this time I figured out what my dick was for, and began using it. I felt bad every time I did this, and tried to do so as seldom as possible. If my parents found out, they would tell me time and again how bad I was for doing it and that I should pray for forgiveness. I wasn't allowed to watch MTV or shows like 90210 in my late teens because they were too "vulgar".

One time when I was 16, a girl pointed to the bulge in my gym shorts. She was cute and was nice to me, but her interest in my package completely confused me. Girls weren't supposed to like boys, and they weren't interested in sex, or so I had learned all along. They didn't like sex, but they would go along with it if they liked the guy enough, but it was still wrong for the guy to even think about asking.


Since that time when I was 12, all I wanted to have was a girlfriend. I didn't even want to have sex -- I'd be good. I just wanted to have a close, loving connection. I prayed and prayed about it. I prayed for years. I said I would not sin, would do anything and everything I could. Then, when I didn't get it right away, I went ahead and did what I said I would, just to prove myself, in case god was testing me.

After 8 years of constant failure (I tried about 9 times across those 8 years, asking girls out, to dance, to lunch, etc) I finally gave up. If god was really testing me, then he had pushed me too far and had not only broken me but had lost a follower. He lost one of his most loyal servants, and that church lost one of its most committed members.



Since that time 6 years ago, I have learned that it's charm, charisma, and confidence that attract women, not god or church or religion. God could have taught me this and shown me the way, or ran me into a religious girl who was also awkward but would like me. But no. Either he failed, or he decided that I wasn't worth it or something. If my best wasn't good enough, then it never would have been, and he wasn't worth my time.

You prayed for a Jeep and received it. Instead of praying for the end of human suffering and accomplishing world peace. I'm glad god has his priorities straight.

Originally Posted by Togowack

These are all just benefits to have answered prayer. To be truthful, none of these things did me any good. The jeep just sucked all my time and kinda made me miserable. The job isn't the best job, but it is what I asked for and has been a help.

All I can really say at this point is to pick up a bible, read it and seek God. Participating in church programs isn't going to do much, except for to get you around other people.

TBH, a catholic church isn't the best place to start either. The catholic religion tends to teach that you will recieve a good reward for good deeds done and feel good about it. Well, its no different than volunteering for anything else. Many catholic believers have Jesus in the heart so I don't knock them, but in general the religion teaches that you have to do certain things to attain redemption.

If you read the bible, you will find this isn't true, the disciples were changed through learning and believing. I read the bible quite often and pray often as possible, and it changes your heart. You need to spend time praying and reading. In the end it is your ability to believe, or have faith, that will get you where you want to be.

And reading the word will be what gets you there, and on a persistent basis.

I'm going to bed, so I'll just rant a bit more. Your heart is your well spring of life. Jesus says your cup should be filled to overflowing. This is really what your looking for, and it will make your life a wonderful thing to live. Rather than doing these things that men tell you to do, by believing, Jesus himself will fill you with a certain kind of life which surpasses understanding.

You need to have a pure heart in order to allow this life to flow into you. People with hate and anger in their heart will never be happy. But people that found what they want in life are generally happy, but not to overflowing as the word describes.

It is a hard to find this. Most christians, including me, have a hard time with it. That's because it involves making some hard life decisions, which can tear your life apart. Essentially though, there is a price to be paid, but the bible says it is worth it.

I've given you it all. Told you my life story. You refuse to believe I was devout enough because it didn't work. You think that god had something else in store for me because he refused to give me what I wanted.


I refuse to be strung along. I'm no idiot, and if he won't give me the barest scrap of what he gives everyone else, I won't go along with it.