Originally Posted by Validuz (Post 18680047)

Here's the insane part, they are recruiting people for recounting.

So a bunch of butt-hurt progressive ****bags are going to be the ones counting.

:rofl:

Originally Posted by Esteban_Villa (Post 18680050)

And this is a great example of a brainwashed right winger who bashes a man for trying to get clarity on an issue. When you're that far on the right on issues, even normal Joes begin to look like marxists.

Originally Posted by absent (Post 18679965)

When you say "the n-word" you're forcing me to say ****** in my head, you bastard.

Originally Posted by Feannag (Post 18679840)

Whoa now there, seriously though. Anyone have any ACTUAL numbers on Trump's businesses and actual worth? Last I checked he had quite a few failed/bankrupt businesses. And the extra dart in that mess is the "Trump University settlement", practically admits it failed and they just want the people to go away. Someone with a "keen sense of business" wouldn't be making and bankrupting business after business, only reason he is still around is his real estate is eating up those losses. And yes that whole debt thing started in the 90s, but is that debt actually still there? Was it all paid off or was it simply "moved around" much like people transfer credit balances to new accounts?

And the famous "refuses to release his taxes" thing. If he had such "keen" business sense why would he feel the need to hide how his own personal finances are handled? Wouldn't that be a sheer fundamental of business sense, being able to manage your personal finances well?

And FOREIGN trade? Did I miss something when Trump claimed "The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive." It doesn't take an actual businessmen to know we actually out-sourced nearly all our manufacturing to China during the 90s and turn of the millennia. Why would China create a hoax to make us non-competitive when we basically GAVE them our work and made ourselves non-competitive on that alone?

None of this sounds like a businessman with a "keen" sense of anything other than using real estate to handle/manage debt, and not the debt management we need.

Originally Posted by Gouge (Post 18679963)

Originally Posted by Kerosene31 (Post 18680057)

See, we agree on a lot of stuff. Not everything, but a lot.

My only big disagreement is that the gov't is not beyond hope. The less gov't we have in most cases, the better. However you can't just remove them from the equation. When you do, corporations fill that power gap, and they do not act in our long term best interests either. Corporate America has fallen into the trap of focusing on the short term. Forget next year, how does this quarter look? That kind of thinking leads to some very, very bad decision making (see the housing crisis).

You're feelings on gov't are very common and understandable, but if it can't improve then we are all totally ****ed. It won't be easy but it can be done.

I don't want big gov't, but I don't want big business running things either. You have to strike a balance between the two.

Originally Posted by Kerosene31 (Post 18680057)

Forget next year, how does this quarter look? That kind of thinking leads to some very, very bad decision making (see the housing crisis).

Originally Posted by Validuz (Post 18680063)

Oh, another wild progressive appears to call his brother a regular Joe.

p.s. You can't be brainwashed into being fiscally/nationally conservative. It's the logical conclusion to having a brain.

Originally Posted by -SS- (Post 18680090)

I am very much in line with minarchism -the nightwatchman State. As I've said before, we do need some gvt in order to function as a viable society. The equation and disagreement always boils down to how much. As younger generations are being brainwashed into accepting the Nanny State, the worse the future will be where it becomes acceptable to give away our Liberties and Freedoms to the State, which is the antithesis to what this Nation was founded on. To date, we have been unable to find a better form of gvt. Communism / Socialism showed its true face by murdering ~100 million people, so yeah, I distrust the power of any State.

The inherent flaw with a capitalist society is the fact that there will be winners and losers, which also applies to amassing wealth. In a free society, it also offers the best opportunity to create upward mobility economically. I believe the key to allaying your fears is a society that actually prosecutes corruption without any mercy. So imo, while the potential to fill the gap you worry over is there, a just society willing to prosecute would mitigate it.

This is where I believe that balance can be achieved, but its going to take willpower to hold people who commit crimes accountable for the actions. Affluenza and twinkie defenses wouldnt cut it in my society. Your ass would be going to prison or being put to death depending on your crime(s). In other words, once people know there are real consequences for their actions, the less likely they are to act on them.

Originally Posted by Captain Tele (Post 18680097)

exactly

and i refute this idea that without government we wouldn't have anything to keep snake oil salesmen and usury con artists in check

that is what viable competition is needed for

i don't the government to tell me not to buy from this guy

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...badb71eaad.jpg

just a little Caveat emptor - Wikipedia

and an alternative source

are there people who fall for every nigerian email scam and late night infomercial?

apparently so....but not even government can help those folks

Originally Posted by Captain Tele (Post 18680097)

exactly

and i refute this idea that without government we wouldn't have anything to keep snake oil salesmen and usury con artists in check

that is what viable competition is needed for

i don't the government to tell me not to buy from this guy

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...badb71eaad.jpg

just a little Caveat emptor - Wikipedia

and an alternative source

are there people who fall for every nigerian email scam and late night infomercial?

apparently so....but not even government can help those folks

Originally Posted by -SS- (Post 18680107)

On point.

I understand the need to have a gvt that sets guidelines for businesses to operate (I am torn on monopolies -one hand: freedom / liberty v. other hand: stifles markets and is a barrier to entry), but at the same time, I dont need them to manage my decisions. Market forces can easily put ****ty / shady businesses to the torch as word gets out or put on trial through the courts.

But somewhere along the line, we cant protect everyone, especially from themselves. They are going to have to be responsible for the decisions they make. Want to buy something? Research it first before you buy, including signing any contract.

Get back to the basics, first one being: with freedom comes responsibility.

Originally Posted by -SS- (Post 18680090)

I am very much in line with minarchism -the nightwatchman State. As I've said before, we do need some gvt in order to function as a viable society. The equation and disagreement always boils down to how much. As younger generations are being brainwashed into accepting the Nanny State, the worse the future will be where it becomes acceptable to give away our Liberties and Freedoms to the State, which is the antithesis to what this Nation was founded on. To date, we have been unable to find a better form of gvt. Communism / Socialism showed its true face by murdering ~100 million people, so yeah, I distrust the power of any State.

The inherent flaw with a capitalist society is the fact that there will be winners and losers, which also applies to amassing wealth. In a free society, it also offers the best opportunity to create upward mobility economically. I believe the key to allaying your fears is a society that actually prosecutes corruption without any mercy. So imo, while the potential to fill the gap you worry over is there, a just society willing to prosecute would mitigate it.

This is where I believe that balance can be achieved, but its going to take willpower to hold people who commit crimes accountable for the actions. Affluenza and twinkie defenses wouldnt cut it in my society. Your ass would be going to prison or being put to death depending on your crime(s). In other words, once people know there are real consequences for their actions, the less likely they are to act on them.

Originally Posted by Kerosene31 (Post 18680137)

The extreme right wants the nanny state just as much as the extreme left, maybe more.

The bible thumping right (and don't kid yourself, that's who helped put Trump over the top) wants nothing more than a christian theocracy where the state determines what is right or wrong to put in our bodies, etc. They are just as scary as those who want to limit how much sugar we can have.

The monopoly is one thing that must be broken up by the state. Once a company becomes a monopoly, they only act to protect their monopolistic powers. Consumers lose the power to choose, as the barriers to competition become so great as to prevent any competition.

Originally Posted by Kerosene31 (Post 18680137)

The bible thumping right (and don't kid yourself, that's who helped put Trump over the top) wants nothing more than a christian theocracy where the state determines what is right or wrong to put in our bodies, etc. They are just as scary as those who want to limit how much sugar we can have.