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-   -   PVP discussion: skill based? gear based? WoW and WAR (https://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=570968)

Slobax 01-05-2009 21:44

PVP discussion: skill based? gear based? WoW and WAR
 
Note: Do not turn this into a WoW vs WAR thread in general, i put that in the thread title in regards to the pvp system and their mechanics (how the actual combat feels, how long fights last, scenarios vs bgs, etc)

I could have put this in either the WoW or WAR subforums, but I figured it had more of a chance of turning into a nerd slap fight in the there and less about the subject on hand.

Had a nice little AIM argument with my buddy about WAR vs WoW, in regards to PVP, and it got me thinking. I personally find the WAR rvr (keyword RVR, because it's not 1v1 balanced, and doesn't try to make people think it is like WoW with duels being a retarded benchmark) more enjoyable than WoW pvp - both in the actual combat (fights aren't decided in 5 seconds) and the mechanics of the system that WAR has introduced (open rvr, scenarios while leveling, bolstering, etc). But I'm not here to list why I find WAR rvr better, but rather what you all think.

Is it a pipe dream to hope for "skill based" pvp in an MMORPG? Why not just go play a competitive shooter or starcraft?

Is WoW more gear based in pvp than WAR? The pros and cons of this (players rely on gear as something to look forward to /work for)

I find my perspective on this unique because I've never experienced RVR in WAR past tier2, yet I still enjoy it (some may say I wouldn't if I have seen t4 though). I've experienced end-game bgs and arenas in WoW, but never really enjoyed a BG like I have scenarios, because of how BGs are utterly pointless leveling up (twinks) and how they are just honor farms at end-game. Having to go through an hour+ WSG for 1 mark at lvl 70 was the biggest waste of time I've ever taken part in an MMO, and that's saying a lot.

Again, not trying to start a "my MMO is better than yours" flame war here. I may sound like I am only on WAR's side, but actually my WAR account runs out in like 3 days and I haven't played it seriously in a month or so, while my WoW account is still active - I'm just being honest, and I want to know that I'm not the only one who finds WOW pvp broken as **** because it's an afterthought for blizzard. (Disclaimer: I find arenas fine and a decent measure of player skill, but blizzard has said that they are going to move away from arenas and back to world pvp and BGs as their focus...so BGs and world pvp are my concern)

Thoughts?

Lord Elessar 01-05-2009 22:05

war pvp is more fun for me than wow ever was. gear is a factor but not the key factor. being smart and not trying to hero your way to a win is the key factor. in wow, gear is king. some classes get retardedly overpowered and no matter what you do, you lose. I always feel like we have a chance when numbers are even in War. didn't feel that way in wow.

Slobax 01-05-2009 22:14

and realized that was more long winded than I intended

cliffs: Why do you like WAR pvp, why do you play it as opposed to WoW pvp - OR vice versa. I want to hear both arguments.

Rayn 01-05-2009 22:59

its not very gear based. it is very class based. there are a lot of imbalances in 1v1. I know this isn't a 1v1 game but you're still going to run into it.

JoMo 01-06-2009 00:19

Had a great time in T4 tonight. It was very tactical and we were working together. We were outnumbered by the Destro zerg but we had 2-3 WB's of our own and actually ambushed a BO from two sides and won vs the zerg. They had a Keep, we had a Keep and we'd send people out to take BO's, and they'd take BO's.

Destro would eventually attack the Keep (we had all guns up) then pull back, hoping to split us up, so it was like a 2-3 hour tug of war that went on. They tried to ambush us from one side, then they switched to the other side. They could never get the keep.

It was fun as hell and I literally lost 2-3 hours just doing that.

Rurouni 01-06-2009 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayn (Post 14129899)
its not very gear based. it is very class based. there are a lot of imbalances in 1v1. I know this isn't a 1v1 game but you're still going to run into it.

quit putzing around T3 and get 40!

Rayn 01-06-2009 11:44

why? for the awesome end game?

ragingbunny 01-06-2009 12:13

Getting into T4 made my 5 friends and I quit. Stay as low as possible.

JoMo 01-06-2009 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ragingbunny (Post 14131722)
Getting into T4 made my 5 friends and I quit. Say as low as possible.

Apart from last night, T4 sucked for me too. T3 was awesome.

Mythic really ****ed up with the Fortress war **** though.

JoMo 01-06-2009 13:26

And as far as gear vs non-geared.

Mythic has some gay stuff to fix such as disabilities and silences that basically are like a 'root' but not treated as such or something. I've been chain disabled/silenced/disabled before and it's pretty damn gay. Also the 'punt' ability of the Squig itself is too powerful. Also the 'pull' of the Magus is pretty gay and leads to a huge imbalance.

PVP is better in War from a fun standpoint until you get to Tier 4 and people get abilities that aren't balanced correctly.

Daemon 01-06-2009 15:21

all of the t4 cc is ****ed up. on both sides.

gear makes a difference, but it's not an overwhelming one. mainly it lets you tweak your character more than spec lets you do. you can gear around your playstyle and it will complement it.

the aforementioned class balance is what makes the difference. there are imbalances 1v1 and i think that's fine- it washes out in the more common large engagements. I don't ever feel like I lose because i've been outgeared- i consistently beat classes that I should and consistently lose to classes that I should lose to.

Maven 01-08-2009 14:58

gearing up in war is so much easier than wow as well. although more random
But you can run blood and bile pve in 90 minutes and get geared out in less than two weeks all while pvping the rest of the time.

JoMo 01-08-2009 17:28

T3 oRvR was much better then T4. They have got to do something with the disables in T4. It just makes it lame, especially during big laggy fights when you are disabled for a long time. They also have to do something with the range of the 'pull' from the Magus.

The lamest thing is the Magus pull + the multiple purple rift under the Magus.

I don't know of any Order tactics that do the same thing. I mean, engineers have that magnet thing but the range is something like 2 feet unlike the giant range of the Magus pull.

Dai Shinzo 01-08-2009 17:30

WoW in it's current incarnation and through most of it's history as PVP in a 1v1 form is about fotm class and gear all things being equal.

Group PVP is fotm classes and gear all things being equal.

I had a lot of fun playing it as both a really strong PVP class post TBC (pewpew warrior) and as a weak as **** disc priest early near release (MC'ing people off felwood flight path was ballin though) and really as someone who had basically every single class to max level cap at some point PVP was easy as **** due to the sheer amount of retards.

WAR is currently 1v1 fairly balanced the way it should be with classes fulfilling their defined roles and gear making only a minor difference. I know which classes/players I have trouble with and try and adapt around it.

WAR small group PVP assuming non stacked teams is extremely balanced and fun aside from the gayness that is t4 CC but is still probably the most fun despite the CC.

WAR RvR in warband+ format is completely gay and is based off who has the most tanks/ranged dps and gear be damned if you get 3+ people on you because you're going to be perma disabled and dead even with a team of people healing you. I hate it with a passion ;o


Cliffs*

WoW PVP is fotm + gear as I've seen even the worst players kill people due to RNG out of balance attacks.

WAR is pretty much organization and gay CC atm while that is close to skill based I still don't want to put call it so. Gear helps but not that much as I still have close to similar numbers of my main stats as I did in greens as I do now in purples.

Dai Shinzo 01-08-2009 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoMo (Post 14140634)
T3 oRvR was much better then T4. They have got to do something with the disables in T4. It just makes it lame, especially during big laggy fights when you are disabled for a long time. They also have to do something with the range of the 'pull' from the Magus.

The lamest thing is the Magus pull + the multiple purple rift under the Magus.

I don't know of any Order tactics that do the same thing. I mean, engineers have that magnet thing but the range is something like 2 feet unlike the giant range of the Magus pull.

Play with a good engineer like bomb and company and that pull is just as deadly. Most engineers are just terrible nade spamming mofos.

JoMo 01-08-2009 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dai Shinzo (Post 14140643)
Play with a good engineer like bomb and company and that pull is just as deadly. Most engineers are just terrible nade spamming mofos.

I was playing with Bomb and Oakey and them and we were owning Destro in a scenario because they didn't have good players. Once the good players trickled in with the Magus pull + triple vortex sucker hole and DPS, no amount of healing is going to keep everyone alive.

The engineer pull is like 2 feet, it's not a very big pull, the Magus pull is like 100 ft.

Rurouni 01-08-2009 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoMo (Post 14141597)
I was playing with Bomb and Oakey and them and we were owning Destro in a scenario because they didn't have good players. Once the good players trickled in with the Magus pull + triple vortex sucker hole and DPS, no amount of healing is going to keep everyone alive.

The engineer pull is like 2 feet, it's not a very big pull, the Magus pull is like 100 ft.

its the same damn thing...

what makes the destro one better is the synergy of the different classes.

destro has DoKs who have the Morale 2 6s stun Universal Confusion(order's is on BWs' Ruin and Destruction... kinda suicidal if you're up there)

Chosen and Marauders with Quake and Concussive Jolt ae knockdowns, whereas Order's is on the Kotbs.


Magus also have better PB AEs on their pullin line as compared to Engineers.

JoMo 01-08-2009 23:02

Also my WP has either a knockback or knockdown. Sometimes it works as a knock back, sometimes it works as a knockdown. I don't really know why it does what it does but sometimes it will knock people back, and then sometimes it will knock them down.


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