[Feedback] Grapple

Note: Thread is getting fairly long, I posted a more evolved idea near the end of this thread but for the benefit for those of you who are reaching for the "reply" button, and the guys at Irrational reading through mountains of feedback, I quoted it again at the end of this post.

First, I want to say that in my opinion, the grapple is what makes T:V, it's what the jetpack was to Tribes 1. If you put your mind to it, you can use it almost anywhere and it will help you out. Couple things, I consider myself a grapple monkey and I hardly ever run out of ammo, and with the experience I have thus far, I'd have to say that should be kept as is.

Alright my only gripe is how the grapple handles itself, it's a little buggy, it's not always consistent when you wrap around objects, and whether or not these objects will break it (I'm attributing this to bugs, and not a decision decision). However, what would make me tingle, and your eternal slave T:V Devs, is if the rope would be a lot harder to break. Secondly, if the rope starts to wrap around an item, make it harder to reel yourself in, or impossible.

It would be really really awesome if you could make the rope wrap around multiple objects and surfaces, but the code for that is most likely involved. I'm not sure if this is feasible, or warranted, as its very possible I'm overlooking some key facets here but at the very least, improving the rope's strength is what I'm advocating for. If the rope can withstand greater tension, it will be used more often and in situations where people have greater speed. Ultimately, making it behave exactly like a real rope in all possible circumstances would be my dream, but I doubt that's possible.

Second (less important) suggestion is to extend the length of the grapples reach, I often find myself skiing over some terrain wishing that I could grapple the ground below me as to send me into a power and graceful downward arc directly onto the next slope, and releasing at just the right moment giving me extra momentum. I don't see how a longer grapple would hurt gameplay as you can only use it effectively over open terrain, the extra 50 feet will be useless in all but these circumstances. If people using the grapple to return flags at greater distances than intended, maybe make it impossible to drag a flag back to you if its further than for example, 50 feet and the total distance the rope can travel would be 100 feet.

Anyway, thoughts, suggestions, comments, flames?

shad said this further on in the thread

If you coded the grapple like this, I think it would be feasible, although it's entirely dependent on how the engine works, so all of this is purely speculation.

If the rope is straight, calculate the length of the rope, the velocity of the object on the other end, it's weight, and the speed at which it is travelling. Think up a formula that will fairly deduct health over time.

If the rope is bent, then calculate the angle of the vertice touching it, factor in what I mentioned above + the angle and have it deduct an appropriate amount of health, figure out a formula to do that.

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While I don't agree with everything you say, the wrapping around objects issue is a bit annoying. If the rope touches any object while you swing it instantly snaps. But I could see it having to be this way for coding complexities. Though the thing I don't agree with at all is lengthening the rope, you literally get just about 100 feet as is. Try grappling in the cavern level. You can, in some spots grappling the ceiling while standing flat on the ground, thats alot of rope. Now I have to try out the graceful arc into the next slope idea

Predators Rage said:

While I don't agree with everything you say, the wrapping around objects issue is a bit annoying. If the rope touches any object while you swing it instantly snaps. But I could see it having to be this way for coding complexities. Though the thing I don't agree with at all is lengthening the rope, you literally get just about 100 feet as is. Try grappling in the cavern level. You can, in some spots grappling the ceiling while standing flat on the ground, thats alot of rope. Now I have to try out the graceful arc into the next slope idea

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The thing is, if you're trying to grapple something that's 200 feet away, the time it will take for your grapple to get there is completely lost, you're standing still. And once you're moving it will be pointless as what's 200 feet of rope going to serve you if you aren't moving, and when the reeling is really really slow? You can't help your skiing or anything else for that matter by doing this, you'd be better off just skiing there.

Edit:

As for the rope breakage currently, it isn't consistent. I can sometimes completely wrap around the flagstand on the cavern map, if I shoot my grapple underneath it as I'm coming up. But when approach from the top it will break. If the rope could detect whether or not a surface was sharp, that would be even better. Typically the rope can withstand about one (sometimes minor) bend before it breaks.

I suppose what irks me the most is the lack of consistency, but I'm sure whatever direction they choose, by the time the game goes gold it will be.

Making the rope wrap would be very complicated. I don't know how exactly the real grappler handles, but I can tell you that too much rope strength can be a very bad thing. If it's too high, then you suddenly see people making sharp turns at mach3 and HoF's grappling cappers and making them come to a dead stop. Be careful what you wish for.

shadowwolf said:

As for the rope breakage currently, it isn't consistent. I can sometimes completely wrap around the flagstand on the cavern map, if I shoot my grapple underneath it as I'm coming up. But when approach from the top it will break. If the rope could detect whether or not a surface was sharp, that would be even better. Typically the rope can withstand about one (sometimes minor) bend before it breaks.

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The first meter or so from the hook point is insolid (read: can pass through things)

Amadeu5 said:

Making the rope wrap would be very complicated. I don't know how exactly the real grappler handles, but I can tell you that too much rope strength can be a very bad thing. If it's too high, then you suddenly see people making sharp turns at mach3 and HoF's grappling cappers and making them come to a dead stop. Be careful what you wish for.

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Tell you the truth, I'd like to see people making sharp turns at mach 3 (or at least try it out, see how it goes), as for carriers be grappled by HoFs, that's possible but the usefulness I will question. If the FC is heading towards a flag and the HoF is looking at him, grapples him, the FC will only be "hit" by rope when he reaches the other side of the HoF. It would actually be pretty cool now that I think of it, if the HoF can pull it off. There are ways to counter as well by the FC, making turns around objects which would screw the HoF over if he was attached to the FC. Imagine a dog tangled in his own leash for example

I'd like to see this avenue explored, I can't predict what will happen in the future yet, but it would be cool to give it a shot.

edit: Didn't know that about the grapple, makes sense now that I think back on it, thanks

Would you like chasing a capper only to have him do a sharp 90 degree turn to his flag and cap away while you're wondering wth happened? Would you like to grab a flag only to get stopped by a random guy who grappled you on the way in?


These things might be fun for one side, but sure as hell aren't for the other.

Amadeu5 said:

Would you like chasing a capper only to have him do a sharp 90 degree turn to his flag and cap away while you're wondering wth happened? Would you like to grab a flag only to get stopped by a random guy who grappled you on the way in?


These things might be fun for one side, but sure as hell aren't for the other.

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I'm already doing this, and if the guy chasing has a grapple you can tell where and what people are doing by watching the player model and easily follow, sure it requires more skill but increasing the skill level in an intelligent manner is what I'd like to see happen.

added by edit: If he's standing still, and grapples you on the way in at roughly 150 to 200 kph, when the rope will become taught the HoF better get pulled off the stand, although both would come to a stop shortly thereafter. This would be 100% fine with me, why? Because it has an advantage, and a disadvantage for BOTH parties. ON TOP of this, if the HoF has his grapple out trying to hit me, all the better for me, he isn't shooting at me with a gun while this is going on, plus the HoF will end up in close proximity to the capper, then if the HoF's teammates start shooting, they might tk the HoF slightly, etc etc.

Regardless, if you grab the flag and get the hell out of there, the defenders have two choices, shoot you and follow you half assed, or don't shoot and follow you step for step. Whether or not the rope is harder to break at this point will only affect the "skill level" of the chase.

Given that there is a chase. If the capper's stopped, there's no chase, there's only slaughter, and the enemy killing their HoF won't get your team any points.

Amadeu5 said:

Given that there is a chase. If the capper's stopped, there's no chase, there's only slaughter, and the enemy killing their HoF won't get your team any points.

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Have you played Tribes competitively?

No, but I don't see how this has any relevance to the topic at hand.

Amadeu5 said:

No, but I don't see how this has any relevance to the topic at hand.

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Reread my posts, I've refuted your last argument already.And yes this is relevent, it means that you've have zero experience on an organized Tribes team, and strategies of said teams.

I wouldn't base my vision of the game on pubs.

People on pubs won't use organized tactics. If a capper comes to a dead stop and can't even leave because he's attached to the enemy HoF then he's going to get killed in a matter of seconds. I fail to see how this would be useful for the capper.

Amadeu5 said:

People on pubs won't use organized tactics. If a capper comes to a dead stop and can't even leave because he's attached to the enemy HoF then he's going to get killed in a matter of seconds. I fail to see how this would be useful for the capper.

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Casual players don't make a game last 5+ years.

Expanding on your idea that a HoF could grapple incoming lights, imagine for example the winter map, at either flag stand. HoF grapples the light maybe 20-30 feet out (or 5-10 feet for the last part of this theory to work), the light noticing this changes his direction going OVER the roof of the flagstand. As the rope bends around the second edge it finally becoms taught pulling the HoF off the flagstand and upswards (the rope would have to be able to withstand a very hard initial shock, yet the condition of said rope would have to quickly degrade after the initial shock) and breaks, catapulting the light back through the flag room, and grabs the flag at breakneck speeds. If at the second bend it breaks, well the capper just pulled off an amazing display of skill, or something like that. Oh lets not forget that if the HoF isn't the flag, he isn't serving his purpose.

God that would be cool.

I think this final idea is worthy of consideration. Having the ropes have a set amount of hit points, different tensions on the rope will have different negative impacts on its condition. This way you can have either a lot of far and long low tension swings (the longer the total amount of rope deployed, the weaker the overall strength), or one or two quick 90 degree turns at mach3. Hell, maybe even balance this out with ammo, having the option to shoot either one rope (weak) or two ropes (strong).

Except that the rope doesn't bend, it breaks if anything touches it. And even then, the example you gave is very unlikely and is restricted to one map.



P.S.: VUG doesn't care how long a game lasts, they care about how many people buy it. It's pub play that sells games, not competition.

Amadeu5 said:

Except that the rope doesn't bend, it breaks if anything touches it. And even then, the example you gave is very unlikely and is restricted to one map.



P.S.: VUG doesn't care how long a game lasts, they care about how many people buy it. It's pub play that sells games, not competition.

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If a HoF grapples a light, in practically any situation could light can change his course pulling the heavy off the flagstand, allowing others to grab the flag. It doesn't matter what map, sure my example was fancy but it doesn't change that basic premise.

P.S.: VUG better care how much a player likes the game because that player will tell 10 other people what he thinks of the game, and whether or not its worthy of their hard earned cash. How many T1 vets (well maybe not T1 vets, but I wouldn't put it past the T2 vets ) do you think preordered the game? I bet 99% of the pre orders are from people who've played previous versions of the game exntensively and can't wait to get their hands on it.

If Tribes 1 had died out a few months after release, you think we'd even be here right now?

shadowwolf said:

Reread my posts, I've refuted your last argument already.And yes this is relevent, it means that you've have zero experience on an organized Tribes team, and strategies of said teams.

I wouldn't base my vision of the game on pubs.

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I was unaware that competitive play for T:V started already.

shadowwolf said:

If a HoF grapples a light, in practically any situation could light can change his course pulling the heavy off the flagstand, allowing others to grab the flag.

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And seeing that said light changed directions and won't grab, the heavy might as well release the grappler before he gets pulled off the stand, and the light will go flying away in some random direction.

liquidh2o said:

I was unaware that competitive play for T:V started already.

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Here's a hint, it started a long time ago and was based around a game called "tribes".

edited to add: oh and here's is something else for you.

Amadeu5 said:

And seeing that said light changed directions and won't grab, the heavy might as well release the grappler before he gets pulled off the stand, and the light will go flying away in some random direction.

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Fine, you let go I'll just grapple immediately switch my direction and grab the flag and run away.

Look, I don't care if the HoF or FC wins in this situation, what I do care is that both have a good possibility at defeating each other. As long as a strategy has a counter, I'll be happy.