Autopacks means no learning curve?

T:V is going to rock, and I really liked the sound of packs having two functions, the passive and the active. But I've got a creeping skepticism about a potential pitfall of this new pack framework.

Let me first state my understanding of the new pack framework, so that I can be shot down right away if I'm wrong. Packs have two modes, passive and active. Passive is a benefit you always get no matter what just for wearing the pack. Active is a "burst" effect which can be triggered as a one-shot use when the pack energy is full, and will expend all pack energy.

So "active" is a bit of a misnomer. Sensor jammer in classic has passive and active. The new model seems to be a passive plus a one-shot use that recharges.

I'm worried about the learning curve or room for skill in such a framework.

Clearly, it takes zero skill to make use of the passive mode. The active mode seems to be of pretty limited flexibility as well, because the most frequently you can make decisions concerning the use of the pack is once per full-charge time.

The energy pack is exempt from this argument, as it powers your jets which are a central skill in the game. So take for example the repair pack, since it was described to us. Forget repairing the gens, lets say you're using the repair pack in a fight to repair yourself.. camping the enemy base with it, or being a repair whore dueler.

In T2 you were helpless and grounded when repairing, and a player had to learn to recognize and create opportunities to repair. A skilled player will find more chances to repair, and a newb will get owned trying to repair at the wrong time.

With the described T:V repair pack, Johnny Newb is going to get just as much health back over time as a hardcore vet. Sure the vet may live longer or run away better, but the strategy of the repair pack seems much more shallow. At best, you can shape your play around the fact that you're getting the passive benefit.


If you dismiss the repair pack example, let's try to design a shield pack into the "passive + one-shot" framework.

Passive mode is probably going to be a damage reduction.
Active (aka one-shot) mode would be, what? x seconds of invulnerability?

Let's just say it's 3 seconds, and that the recharge takes 15 seconds.

Now, you can only CHOOSE to activate the pack at most once every 15 seconds. Once you make a choice to use the pack, you cannot make another one until it recharges 15 seconds later.

The T2 shield pack had you choosing every moment. It was important to have it on at the right times, and off at the right times. On for damage, off for recharge. There was a theoretical optimal use of the shield pack that players would approach slowly as they went up the learning curve.

In the T:V model, that optimal use seems much easier to achieve, since the skill is shallower.


I think a model that has more room for skill is a model like the cloak pack. It has a modest passive feature (inivis to pulse sensors just for wearing it) and a more important active feature (inivis to the eye).

An active mode that spends energy over time instead of in one burst, but allows the pack to recharge when off seems like a more skill-based model to me. Energy management is a big part of tribes, and the new model seems to dumb it down.

But I can't wait for Q404 since I know they're going to nail this game.

-ricefrog

We'll all be able to see how well this model works in open beta. It will probably be tweaked a bunch of times as well.

Its quite a blind leap to say something is broken without first knowing how its balanced.

I would agree about the shield pack, if not for the fact that it used its own energy.

It seems the mentality they're using is that the e-pack was the most popular b/c not only did its use not restrict movement, but it enchanced it. Thus it seems movement is more important than good managment of energy.

Still, I did like the old shield pack, but I guess I don't know anything about the new one anyways.

Yeah I agree about the shield pack and to a lesser extent the cloaking pack.

Manageing your energy and being grounded made the shield pack really interesting and fun to play (at least in t2 arena). Something that was hard to master, but really paid off once you did.

If there are going to make a shield pack that makes you have damage reduction for X amount of seconds instead of having you manage your energy, I'd rather not see a shield pack in T:V at all.

Hmmm, thinking about it. . . the ability to fly around while shielded could be interesting. You could shield right as you grab the flag, thus making it easyer to get the flag in play.

Shielded mortar jumps also come to mind.

as far as the shield pack goes, the way i would look at it is in passive mode it gives you a small percentage of protection (to be tweaked in beta)
then if you want it to take 100% of the damage, make it like it always was.. once u turn on active mode, your shield energy begins its drain, and the more damage u take the faster it goes.. etc etc u know the drill.
but that's just me.. i really dont see why the devs would give u an x amount of seconds to be invulnerable, when energy management is an extra skill needed (for, let's say a HoF) to master, which makes the game even more interesting.
it's the one pack that, i think, doesnt really need any tweaking aside from splitting it into passive/active mode.

Void|deadjawa said:

Its quite a blind leap to say something is broken without first knowing how its balanced.

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yeah but this is a discussion forum and it's the point of the forum to discuss potential issues the community thinks of.

pyrot3chnic said:

as far as the shield pack goes, the way i would look at it is in passive mode it gives you a small percentage of protection (to be tweaked in beta)
then if you want it to take 100% of the damage, make it like it always was.. once u turn on active mode, your shield energy begins its drain, and the more damage u take the faster it goes.. etc etc u know the drill.
but that's just me.. i really dont see why the devs would give u an x amount of seconds to be invulnerable, when energy management is an extra skill needed (for, let's say a HoF) to master, which makes the game even more interesting.
it's the one pack that, i think, doesnt really need any tweaking aside from splitting it into passive/active mode.

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The assumption that active mode is a one shot function is probably a hasty one. We only have two packs explained, and both of them make the most sense as one shot use tools.

On the other hand, the shield pack or the sensor jammer, would, if they are in the game, make the most sense in an active draining system instead of a one shot use of all your p-energy.

Sensor jammer is a much needed pack. Hopefully they fixed up it's functionality though! Quite lacking in the previous games.

I think they'll make senose jamming more useful by making the command map/compass more useful.

I noticed in some early screenshots that the compass shoed enemy locations to your sensor proxemity.

Aww, cool. Like a radar type deal?

They have pictures of it from the concept. I assume it would replace the command map. Local player radar instead. Just like with the mini-command map HUDs, but built in and a lot cooler/less CPU intensive.

ricefrog said:

So "active" is a bit of a misnomer. Sensor jammer in classic has passive and active. The new model seems to be a passive plus a one-shot use that recharges.

I'm worried about the learning curve or room for skill in such a framework.

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Well, since you've only seen the first two packs, perhaps we should table this particular issue until you see more packs. The fact that one plus two equal an odd number does mean that any two numbers added together make an odd number.

Thrax Panda said:

Well, since you've only seen the first two packs, perhaps we should table this particular issue until you see more packs. The fact that one plus two equal an odd number does mean that any two numbers added together make an odd number.

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totally. i based my disclaimed assumptions on your comment in the other thread that:

"You can only trigger a pack's alternate use when it is fully charged."

i wasn't sure if that applied to only the packs we've seen so far, or a more general framework that you inted to design all the packs into, and my comments are mostly directed toward that latter case.