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Odio
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Old
141 - 11-30-2017, 19:29
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Don't pay to play something you've already paid for.
 
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Atreides
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Old
142 - 11-30-2017, 21:23
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Originally Posted by Kerosene31 View Post
Maybe parents should take responsibility for their kids? How do they even get the money? Why is that always someone else's job?

Maybe parents should notice a kid spending hundreds on mobile crap?
It's almost as if you didn't even read the article.
 
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Atreides
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143 - 11-30-2017, 21:26
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Originally Posted by Odio View Post
Don't pay to play something you've already paid for.
**** goes beyond that now... people are AFKing SW:BF2 to get the loot boxes you can no longer pay for. So now they're paying to not play? These kids are all over the place.
 
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HaPpY
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144 - 12-01-2017, 04:53
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probably should just kill all kids instead
 
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Kerosene31
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145 - 12-01-2017, 06:57
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Originally Posted by Atreides View Post
It's almost as if you didn't even read the article.
The parents obviously gave this kid a credit card and did nothing to monitor his spending. These pay to win mobile games are garbage (to the point where they aren't even considered games anymore) but people need to take personal responsibility at some point.

If this was me as a kid, the first cc statement that came in would be the end of it.

It is the whole mentality that we make the world 100% kid safe without ever teaching them an ounce of personal responsibility. Every pair of scissors should be safety scissors, because why bother teaching kids to use them properly?

You're obviously jumping on the **** ea bandwagon without wanting to accept blame anywhere else.

Loot boxes should be cosmetic only, and that's where EA dropped the ball. Cosmetic loot boxes are fine though and help reduce the price of map packs and other things. Not to mention it makes games fun. I would never spend money on Overwatch loot, but I enjoy playing even more knowing I can earn one for free.
 
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Atreides
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146 - 12-01-2017, 09:06
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Kids make their own money: allowance, part time jobs, as gifts for bday/xmas. Funds can be loaded to an account using pre-paid cards. You can also order just about anything online these days using your debit visa card or xfered from a bank account to a paypal.

Parents don't buy kids handheld games any more. Money that would be funneled into nintendo products when we were kids are now just directed at mobile apps (since parents these days all give their kids a cell phone by age 8 because they're afraid of kidnappings or something). There's a large exposure when every kid has a smart phone.

The article talks about how he had a job and earned his own income. His parents tried to sever his Internet connection but he still played over his cell network. The parents identified a problem - they could not stop a free-willed individual from doing what he wanted to do for the same reason you can't tell a depressed person to cheer the **** up.

I don't want to blame anyone else? Your entire contention is that parent's should do something. OK... did your parents control you when you were a kid? Did you not watch R rated movies? Drink alcohol? smoke? Your wonder solution exists outside of reality. Kids don't handle situations as mature adults and mature adults can't control kids 100% of the time. The timeframe required to make a digital purchase is instantaneous. It's easier to get away with as a kid than jerking off to porn. You can try to stop it but as time passes that kid is going to get older, smarter, make more money, become more independent... I think you and I may be able to impart wisdom to a child between the difference of what is OK to buy and what isn't, but what of all the parents who know nothing about the industry? Non-gamers who can't tell the difference or identify the minutiae of spending on games?

I've made the point that I don't like the idea of a randomized loot box. Has nothing to do with EA. I don't play HS or OW because those games are just designed to sell you MTX. "Content patches" are just MTX patches. They produce it to print money. You say your fine with cosmetic loot boxes; so as a parent you'd be fine with gifting your child HS packs or OW loot crates? Do you not feel that you're exposing them to a gamble mechanic? The kid in the story (the one you've responded to twice and still haven't read) had a cavalier attitude; being a teen, he didn't have anything else to spend his money on and didn't seem like a big issue. Looking back on 3 years he had spent $13k with nothing to show for it (an extreme case but still, what limit IS acceptable?)

Loot boxes are designed to entice you to spend money to obtain an item without giving you that item. It's predatory. Like Zomnivore mentioned; there's no upper limit to what you can spend and these companies exploit that. And there's no end to the content you can purchase. New 'harmless' cosmetics are always on the forefront of content development.

I write all of this to give context to my point of view. Did I change your entire opinion on the matter? Did I sway you with all of my reasoning and examples? No? So how can a parent 'do their job as a parent' and tell a kid not to spend money on micro transactions? This is why problems like this exist - It's not for a lack of effort or responsibility.
 
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Last edited by Atreides; 12-01-2017 at 09:08..
Kerosene31
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147 - 12-01-2017, 09:24
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Originally Posted by Atreides View Post
I don't want to blame anyone else? Your entire contention is that parent's should do something. OK... did your parents control you when you were a kid? Did you not watch R rated movies? Drink alcohol? smoke?
My parents would absolutely have stepped in the moment they saw me spending money on something like this. That **** would have been shut down in 1 month max. While my parents obviously couldn't track every dollar I spent, they'd notice hundreds missing from my paycheck.

I have friends with young kids and both the parents and kids are gamers. They haven't had any problem keeping their kids away because they you know... PAY ****ING ATTENTION to what they play and do.

If I had a kid, I would let them play Overwatch. I'd explain to them that the cosmetic crap in the game HAS NO VALUE. That's the life lesson - don't get pulled into the trap where you want it simply because you don't have it. I'd teach them the right way rather than hiding the real world from them.

This is why we have a generation of entitled brats with zero self control. Instead of teaching them, we hide the world from them. Then they step out into the real world and get absolutely crushed.

I work for a University and see this all the time. Little Jimmy gets dropped off at college and literally the kid has never made an actual decision in his life. They are on the phone with mommy or daddy on the first day of classes because they can't even use google maps. They've always just been told exactly where to go.

Just imagine how pathetic it is to see young people absolutely ****ing lost while carrying a smart phone worth several hundred bucks. Think about that for a moment...
 
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Ztir
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Old
148 - 12-01-2017, 09:31
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My parents had no idea where I spent the money I worked for (booze)
 
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Pagy
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149 - 12-01-2017, 09:58
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Originally Posted by Atreides View Post
I am 100% not OK with that kid's story. I think it speaks volumes to the vulnerability it instills in gamers - especially young ones. I have 4 nephews and I could not believe that by the age of 2 they could navigate a smart phone/tablet to access their shows on youtube. Parents these days don't go out and buy PCs and consoles for their kids. Today's market is mobile devices. Before they've learned the value of a dollar, a child will have learned how easily they can spend it.

Even the kid in the article speaks to how conditioned he was. Spending hundreds of dollars wouldn't even give him a moment's pause.

I think we have the luxury of looking back on what we were exposed to when we grew up and the state the industry is in today. Like hellsfury and I describe; gamers today are educated into playing small, consumable, portioned out game mechanics. The idea that a game offers deep and content-rich experience is not something you'll see from a big publisher. Multiplayer games offer the most content, but ever since they put RPG elements in there, the 'purpose' or 'drive' to play has devolved into maxing out that grind. You almost can't have a game these days that doesn't directly offer content at an equal rate to mtx.

Even the term "Micro Transaction" is an industry term. We have no other language to describe it. Micro - as if to be some nominal amount. Blizzard offers card packs and loot boxes for small fees. But they also offer the bulk discount. There's nothing micro about a bundle of 50 HS packs or OW loot boxes. EA publishes a game: they'll offer standard and deluxe editions, EA Access, DLC Season Pass, in-game loot boxes.... before the game has even been released they're hoping to have captured $150-$200 from the average purchaser.

It's ****ed up to look at where we are now and see people on Reddit/YouTube/Twitch who view this as "normal" because they grew up on games in the last 10 years.
what happened to personal responsibility?

yes you accidentally fell into the purchase and was pushed into adding your cc and someone forced you to buy this **** holy **** grow up
 
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Atreides
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150 - 12-01-2017, 10:02
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Originally Posted by Kerosene31 View Post
I have friends with young kids and both the parents and kids are gamers.
I too made that concession. I think gamers are far better equipped to spot that kind of thing. But what about my parents? All they knew was that a (Super) Nintendo was the hottest ****. They were willing to spend hundreds of dollars at xmas to get a console. They would only buy me a game again at xmas and those were whatever they cost at the time. So here you have adults who see that their kids play video games; those games can cost hundreds of dollars once you total the costs of the console, games, extra controller, etc. I would spend my allowance on renting games every weekend and if I mowed neighbors lawns in the summer and shoveled snow in the winter, I could buy myself another game or two. Again, what else is a kid going to spend his money on? If I wanted something, I had to work for it and save up my money to purchase it. There's nothing wrong with teaching that to a kid.

So from the point of view from an outsider; Games had a relatively high cost in the 80s/90s... what about today? Well the costs are similar but the games themselves are usually free and you end up spending as much on transactions that have no limit to them. So while they may appear to be the same environment, it is quite different. You have a tangible item at a fixed price vs a digital one with no limit. The digital product is also structured to receive payments in almost any amount where console games had a high entry price. There is certainly an avenue for that to get out of hand for some individuals - especially for those with no reference point to compare it to (the way games used to be). Like it or not, nobody growing up today has that reference point and parents who didn't play games don't either.
 
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Kerosene31
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151 - 12-01-2017, 10:11
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Originally Posted by Atreides View Post
I too made that concession. I think gamers are far better equipped to spot that kind of thing. But what about my parents?
Back to the article I posted, the parents knew their was a problem, yet their solution was to shut off the internet (which they somehow thought would block a cell phone) instead of you know... parenting.

Managing money is probably one of the most important things to teach, as kids have no idea the value of money (hard to understand until you've worked hard for it). There's tons of ways to do it. My wife's parents made her pay "rent" when she started working. What they were really doing is saving that money for her in college. A simple, yet valuable life lesson. My wife is actually even better with money than I am.

Just because the school bus halts traffic every time it stops, it doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our kids to look both ways... actually it now becomes more important.
 
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SuperTrap
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152 - 12-01-2017, 10:14
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if only there were some way to send a message.. I guess if they are not getting the message... that means the majority are okay paying for digital colors
 
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Ztir
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153 - 12-01-2017, 11:27
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Originally Posted by Kerosene31 View Post
Back to the article I posted, the parents knew their was a problem, yet their solution was to shut off the internet (which they somehow thought would block a cell phone) instead of you know... parenting.

Managing money is probably one of the most important things to teach, as kids have no idea the value of money (hard to understand until you've worked hard for it). There's tons of ways to do it. My wife's parents made her pay "rent" when she started working. What they were really doing is saving that money for her in college. A simple, yet valuable life lesson. My wife is actually even better with money than I am.

Just because the school bus halts traffic every time it stops, it doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our kids to look both ways... actually it now becomes more important.
Technically challenged parents donít understand technology, news at 11
 
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Atreides
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Old
154 - 12-01-2017, 11:51
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Originally Posted by Kerosene31 View Post
Back to the article I posted, the parents knew their was a problem, yet their solution was to shut off the internet (which they somehow thought would block a cell phone) instead of you know... parenting.
That's 1 anecdote told briefly from the kid's point of view. I would not sum up the parent's efforts to all of what was described. You have zero insight into any discussions the parents had with their kid regarding the subject. You read 1 sentence and take that to be the entire story behind it? That's naive.

That kid tells a story of addiction. What about other addictions? Gamblers? Alcoholics? These are not something that you 'solve' - They're managed. Issues some people deal with their entire lives. It requires counseling, support from others... the idea that you can 'parent' all of your problems is not a realistic response. It's even harder when something like playing video games is not a social stigma. If little Timmy is an alcoholic at age 14; sure, send him off to rehab cause that somehow got way out of hand. Do people have that reaction to someone who has a hobby like gaming? what about MtG? Comics? Is the average person equipped to detect such a problem? What about the cool kid who buys his own car and spends spends spends to lower the frame, put on custom rims, sound system, tinting? Is there a response trigger to take action? Where is the line between a hobby enthusiast and a person with a problem?


Getting back the loot box fiasco... oh look:
Paladins unveils loot box cards like Star Wars Battlefront 2 and no one seems happy Eurogamer.net

Thank you Hi-rez for continuing to be the pieces of **** you've always been.
 
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Kerosene31
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155 - 12-01-2017, 12:22
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Originally Posted by Atreides View Post
That kid tells a story of addiction. What about other addictions? Gamblers? Alcoholics? These are not something that you 'solve' - They're managed.
So we're banning bars, booze, Vegas.... sharp edges. Ban everything! People can't make their own decisions.

You can run around and ban anything potentially harmful to our kids, or you can teach your kid. Seems like the latter is easier. The other option is safety scissors and training wheels for everything!

By the way, at least in the US a minor cannot consent to any kind of contract. The parents can say they never gave consent and probably get a refund for most of that.
 
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Ztir
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156 - 12-01-2017, 12:36
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The children these micro transactions are geared towards can***8217;t make their own decisions, no. That***8217;s the entire point of this
 
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Kerosene31
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157 - 12-01-2017, 14:00
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Originally Posted by Ztir View Post
The children these micro transactions are geared towards canít make their own decisions, no. Thatís the entire point of this
They are geared towards retards who can't make their own decisions...

Star Citizen is selling plots of land in a game that isn't even done yet for real money.

Kids should be protected because they are just kids, but this goes way beyond kids. Retard adults are buying this stuff. I doubt any kid even knows what Star Citizen is.
 
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Ztir
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158 - 12-01-2017, 14:04
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Okay, but the rate of kids stealing their parents credit cards or spending all of their minimum wage earnings on palette swaps of guns and costumes is probably astronomically higher in Overwatch/csgo(where people have an issue with it) vs hundreds of dollars for ships I. A space sim game for old people that***8217;s not out yet
 
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Pagy
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159 - 12-01-2017, 14:20
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why even parent your children when u can ask mommy government to ban things
 
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Ztir
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160 - 12-01-2017, 14:29
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Why do anything when we can all be perfect beings with perfect reasoning
 
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