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Calx
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Old
161 - 07-07-2011, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
I do realize. I also realize that I'm not playing ideally and that when pressured, I play better. I also said exactly what you're saying in chat last night, at this point, APM is my biggest issue. But APM doesn't spend minerals. Good play spends minerals, properly.
they're right, you should be doing some kind of build order to improve your APM

your strategy is not actually different from a build order, you just think it is - the build orders people practice are not actually that rigid. they often include for adaptation and are simply just openers to help you get out of the gate. every single good player adapts after/during the opener regardless.

mastering a few good builds WILL make you better, just like having a "go-to" move in any sport will make you better. i'm a huge proponent of mixing it up, i play random and do like 20 different cheese sequences on top of playing normal, but what you are doing is not good.

listen to these guys, no one is giving you ****. we all know what it's like being bronze/silver/etc and pretending like you know better will just stop you from improving with your own mental wall

i also recommend not playing zerg or mastering the spanishwa opener if you have to stick with z.

just to repeat, strategy doesn't mean dick until ... diamondish? i bought sc2 months late, but when i started playing i didnt know ANYTHING about the new stuff.

i cannon rushed my way into diamond. seriously. i went 30-0 cannon rushing (even zergs) because i started in silver or something and had my first loss in high platinum to a 4gate

since i didnt know what warp gate was and i was like holy **** thats cool, i looked up the 4gate build that was apparently very popular and continued to spam that build into high diamond/now master without knowing a thing about sc2's new units or anything.
 
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John the Jammer
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162 - 07-07-2011, 11:04 PM
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**** you cheesing dick
 
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kazan
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Old
163 - 07-08-2011, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Calx View Post
they're right, you should be doing some kind of build order to improve your APM

your strategy is not actually different from a build order, you just think it is - the build orders people practice are not actually that rigid. they often include for adaptation and are simply just openers to help you get out of the gate. every single good player adapts after/during the opener regardless.

mastering a few good builds WILL make you better, just like having a "go-to" move in any sport will make you better. i'm a huge proponent of mixing it up, i play random and do like 20 different cheese sequences on top of playing normal, but what you are doing is not good.

listen to these guys, no one is giving you ****. we all know what it's like being bronze/silver/etc and pretending like you know better will just stop you from improving with your own mental wall

i also recommend not playing zerg or mastering the spanishwa opener if you have to stick with z.

just to repeat, strategy doesn't mean dick until ... diamondish? i bought sc2 months late, but when i started playing i didnt know ANYTHING about the new stuff.

i cannon rushed my way into diamond. seriously. i went 30-0 cannon rushing (even zergs) because i started in silver or something and had my first loss in high platinum to a 4gate

since i didnt know what warp gate was and i was like holy **** thats cool, i looked up the 4gate build that was apparently very popular and continued to spam that build into high diamond/now master without knowing a thing about sc2's new units or anything.
Perhaps. I have been trying to keep my APM and macro spending up, and it helped. With the ladder freeze, I'm still in bronze, but my match making is going up against mid-upper level silver and low golds and winning, with a commanding lead in econ and units usually.

Tal'darim Altar LE (17).SC2Replay

Better, no? My ambient APM is roughly 40ish, thats when I feel like I am doing nothing but sitting and watching, but just doing basic things it stays 80+, and when I'm microing/larva/etc it doubles or more.

e: Also, yes, **** your cheese :\
 
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Calx
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164 - 07-08-2011, 04:34 AM
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80 is decent but nothing to settle for. you should be able to average 100+ in order to call yourself "good" because anyone with healthy fingers is physically capable of pushing 400ish doing nonsense, shuffling through control groups

btw good players don't lose to cheese and constantly do things others would consider cheese

unfortunately i'm still in diamond because i never play 1v1 so i have to deal with playing worse players so i choose to end the game as quickly as possible, win or not (similar to Pride's style i guess except i play random)

if you think spamming cannon rush into platinum is bad, i 8pool zergs when i draw zerg in RvZ or pylon ramp block cannon rush fast expos if i draw P, i cannon+proxy rush P when i draw P in RvP and 10pool them if i draw Z (to destroy buildings), and T... well you can't really cheese even mediocre terrans.
 
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Last edited by Calx; 07-08-2011 at 04:37 AM.
TeckMan
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165 - 07-08-2011, 05:13 AM
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btw i think 4 gate may be the absolute best way to learn starcraft. that or a stimpack timing but that has the word timing in it so automatically is a little advanced. 4gate is a bit of a timing but it comes a lot earlier. I also like how involved the warping mechanic is how you have to move your screen around. maybe that's bad for a beginner I dunno.

a lot of top players give advice to beginners to learn to play a macro game and expand and I think that's terrible advice. Why advise someone that cannot spend one base's income to take another one? I say go slow. Most players below diamond cannot do any kind of 1 base build properly so why get ahead of yourself with a two base play.

I used to always think expand expand expand and it worked well when you could just hide bases from people in lower leagues. I've actually found myself getting more aggressive as I've ranked up and I feel a lot stronger now. I think it's the right way to play Terran.

I think both matchups get worse as time goes on, especially vs Z. I'm not doing any kind of no gas crazy build but just a lot of pressure to delay the AoE tech is working extremely well for me right now in TvP. It's my strongest matchup by far.

People think marauders are so strong but it's actually the marines in MMM that make the combo strong. Very important fact: Marines beat all non-aoe units for cost. They beat lings, zealots, stalkers, immortals, marauders, etc. Only roaches have a chance and I'm pretty sure in larger numbers with combat shields and stim that marines still win. So the impetus is always on P or Z to tech to something that beats marines or you can just overwhelm them with this one unit with just a few marauders for the snare effect. vs Z this is a problematic strategy as it is very high risk for a lot of reasons but vs P you can just keep the pressure on and delay their colossus or templars until you have combat shield and very often just a-move and win.
 
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2good@tribes.com
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166 - 07-08-2011, 01:06 PM
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nvm teckman is a noob scrub
 
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Calx
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167 - 07-08-2011, 03:21 PM
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zergs should never play 1base unless its a team game
 
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groundzero
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168 - 07-08-2011, 08:53 PM
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dark volcanic whats your name/code? im a gold zerg, been dabbling in protoss. I've really hit a wall and been going like 50/50. to be fair ive been on vacation 2 of the last 4 weeks and my mechanics have really slipped.... a lot....but maybe we can practice against one another.
 
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kazan
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169 - 07-08-2011, 11:59 PM
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KazanTheMan.420

ZvZ is absolutely my worst matchup. I always just seem to make the worst decisions and get crushed, or get 6 pooled and fail to hold it off.
 
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TeckMan
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170 - 07-09-2011, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 2good@tribes.com View Post
nvm teckman is a noob scrub
why? because I don't blindly subscribe to the idea that you're supposed to just defend and expand and draw out every game to 4 or 5 bases? none of the top tournament players play this way yet it is gospel on TL.
 
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Julius
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171 - 07-09-2011, 05:08 PM
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You suggested that 1 base all-in's are the best way to learn the game. That is god awful advice.
 
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TeckMan
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Old
172 - 07-09-2011, 05:28 PM
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its not all in to stay on one base when you are in platinum league
 
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Julius
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173 - 07-09-2011, 05:36 PM
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What does it actually teach you? To execute a build order? Unit control? What is a 1 dimensional build gonna teach you about all the other timings and strategies amongst the match-ups that a macro build couldn't do 5x better?
 
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TeckMan
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174 - 07-09-2011, 07:30 PM
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What does it actually teach you? To execute a build order? Unit control?
ya pretty much. platinum players cannot execute build orders, especially when they have to do anything else at the same time. platinum players dont need timing and strategy they need mechanics. having to fight and produce at the same time will teach them that.

I think you could define the skill levels by how long the player will go before making a catastrophic error. Diamond is the first level where the players are able to do a build order if left completely alone. platinum I would expect them, even if not attacked at all, to have hugely ****ed up their macro by like 7 or 8 minutes. gold players could probably go 5 or 6 minutes and below that I would expect them to regularly **** up their first few buildings. teaching expansion macro oriented strategies to a player that cannot manage 1 base if left completely alone for even 10 minutes doesn't make sense to me. but i have never been that low ranked so I really don't know. it just seems odd to me to ask a player to take the same risk as a mode advanced player by expanding, while knowing full well they cannot utilize that level of income at all.
 
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Last edited by TeckMan; 07-09-2011 at 07:35 PM.
2good@tribes.com
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175 - 07-09-2011, 09:39 PM
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builds orders for zerg = lul
 
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kazan
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Old
176 - 07-10-2011, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TeckMan View Post
ya pretty much. platinum players cannot execute build orders, especially when they have to do anything else at the same time. platinum players dont need timing and strategy they need mechanics. having to fight and produce at the same time will teach them that.

I think you could define the skill levels by how long the player will go before making a catastrophic error. Diamond is the first level where the players are able to do a build order if left completely alone. platinum I would expect them, even if not attacked at all, to have hugely ****ed up their macro by like 7 or 8 minutes. gold players could probably go 5 or 6 minutes and below that I would expect them to regularly **** up their first few buildings. teaching expansion macro oriented strategies to a player that cannot manage 1 base if left completely alone for even 10 minutes doesn't make sense to me. but i have never been that low ranked so I really don't know. it just seems odd to me to ask a player to take the same risk as a mode advanced player by expanding, while knowing full well they cannot utilize that level of income at all.
As I understand it, in some sense he is right. A lot of players at gold cannot spend their ****ing money.

In another sense, he is wrong. Players at silver/bronze need that extra income just to cover their asses as they **** up repeatedly and need to be able to quickly recover and make more units/drones. I've won more than a few games after being completely wrecked at mid game, and having enough reserves to push me back from the brink. Otoh, if I'd spent that before hand, I wouldn't likely have been in such a crappy position.

Also, as zerg, just being more than 5 seconds late on a few closely timed inject cycles makes you have way more minerals than you would ever want. Its really easy as zerg to get behind from that.

But as you say, why have players who don't grasp the risk/reward tradeoff and unit/macro management of a multi-base strategy even bother? Because over time, they will learn. They will gather small bits of strategy and mechanics, they will learn timings as they go, and most importantly, if they emulate good players, they will learn to properly macro to the point of not having to make it a massive issue while they go into combat and need to micro and make tactical decisions.
 
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2good@tribes.com
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177 - 07-10-2011, 12:54 PM
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dark volcanic i added you
 
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Julius
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178 - 07-11-2011, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 2good@tribes.com View Post
builds orders for zerg = lul
I dunno if you would call it a build "order", but I have timings for when to make all of my structures which I find to be pretty important. Like evo before lair, +1 melee and baneling nest + expo extractors during lair morph, start looking to take a third as your first 2 bases are nearing full saturation etc.
Of course I'm never set on making drones or units, that's completely variable, but I think having a good idea of when to make what makes your macro so much cleaner, rather than just throwing stuff down willy nilly as you think you'll need it.
 
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2good@tribes.com
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179 - 07-11-2011, 08:59 AM
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i think its pretty donkey that u get evo before lair as "standard" for you, especially on ladder matches since ur playing complete randoms who most likely are going for cheese wins. what good is +1 when banshees come? or BFH? or DTs?

I personally always look to take a 3rd as quickly as possible (before lair) if i dont suspect DTs/banshee play. Of course upgrades are good and essential, but to have timings for them are bad i think (as zerg), every game is different for the most part.

But if you like to play blindly and just hope that u have better macro than your opponent, you can go ahead and do your silly build orders and hope for the win.
 
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Julius
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180 - 07-11-2011, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 2good@tribes.com View Post
i think its pretty donkey that u get evo before lair as "standard" for you, especially on ladder matches since ur playing complete randoms who most likely are going for cheese wins. what good is +1 when banshees come? or BFH? or DTs?

I personally always look to take a 3rd as quickly as possible (before lair) if i dont suspect DTs/banshee play. Of course upgrades are good and essential, but to have timings for them are bad i think (as zerg), every game is different for the most part.

But if you like to play blindly and just hope that u have better macro than your opponent, you can go ahead and do your silly build orders and hope for the win.
It's incredibly common to get upgrades started pre-lair in ZvP these days, just watch any game from nestea/losira/DRG/leenock/other random GSL zergs. ZvT not so much, but that's just how I like to play the match-up. The evo chamber will also make spores available to you in the case of banshees and DT's. It's all around safer and puts you in a better position in the mid-game.
 
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Last edited by Julius; 07-11-2011 at 01:29 PM.
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