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Calx
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101 - 06-22-2011, 05:17 PM
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alternatively, i bet if you play a few games as terran your early game ZvT will improve immensely as you will realize just how limited terran's offensive options early on really are.

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Originally Posted by 2good@tribes.com View Post
most masters are terrible (well not terrible, but are not good at all) so you are probably not much better than these scrubs anyway
i feel sorry for you if you have enough time to practice enough to be as good as you claim while also having enough time to pointlessly harass silver league players on forums about a game a decade old.
 
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Last edited by Calx; 06-22-2011 at 05:20 PM.
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Calx
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102 - 06-22-2011, 05:19 PM
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.
 
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kazan
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103 - 06-22-2011, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Calx View Post
i like threads like these. there's not a whole lot of games out there anymore that encourage self-improvement. i'm a master level player and will try to help you whenever i can.

ok, watching the game now, will add in comments as i see them:

1. build order wrong. overlord at 9, not 10. you are supply capping yourself every single opener by going ovl @ 10. the double extractor trick doesn't make up for this. double extractor trick is pretty overrated... best for early hatch or pool with delayed overlord

2. early build doesn't make sense... you have 400 minerals @ 3 minutes in. you built 2 spines as defense, except you had lings already, and an overlord in his base - the overlord saw his reactor building + 2nd rax building = no possible way to have more than 2 or 3 marines by then, there is no threat. no need for 2 spines.

3. giving up map control. terran easily takes the xel naga in the beginning despite having very immobile forces. lings should take the xel naga from anything the terran can afford to send to it early game.

4. you're playing too blind. your terran opponent was not blind. if you watch the replay from his pov, you'll see he can see your base via comsat scan, so he actually has scouting.. but you don't. you need to scout to see what kind of army he has, what kind of tech he has, what kind of defense, etc... the best way to achieve this is to have overlords skirting the outside of his base early on and lings near his front to patrol for marines that come out to snipe overlords.

5. why you lost the fight vs marine drop

5a. his army was bigger, despite it being a drop. typically drops are supposed to be small forces. why? because they require a transport for every few units, so if you guys have equal economy, he should never have a larger army + transports vs your single army. so one, you didn't have enough units. you had more drones and an expansion, but no units. that's not such a big deal though because...

5b. fighting in a tight, movement-restricted area favors marines (especially with medivacs). in small army situations, medivacs thrive on the ability to heal. when they can limit the fighting to a smaller choke area, the medivacs have less to heal. zerg does best fighting infantry by surrounding them. in this type of fight, where you fight is often much more important than what you fight with. the marines got behind your mineral line (tough spot), but you should have ran your drones away to the expansion where they could mine safely, and meanwhile your roaches should be fighting the marines and baiting them out into open ground where the lings can more easily surround them as opposed to streaming in and dying by A-moving your entire army into the waiting and grouped up marines.

====
overall what i would have done differently to win:

1. expand even earlier. you were scared of a nonexistent threat - terran can only harass you early via reapers, multi-rax marine rush (the all-in kind), or a reactor hellion build. your job is to scout which of these he's doing - and if he's doing none, then you have nothing to fear until he builds up an army.

2. scout more often. sacrifice overlords if you have to. had you seen his starport earlier, you should know drops are incoming, and could have army more readily in position. i would also stagger overlords in the air space between his base and yours, to see drops coming in advance. pay attention to the minimap.

3. play aggressively when warranted, play defensively when warranted. you were too defensive early (when no danger was present) and too aggressive (economically) with your expansion when danger WAS present. when terran has lots of infantry at his disposal (he had double reactor raxes), all he needs is dropships to become a mobile threat. this is why scouting starports is crucial - it forces you to be aware of defending all spots, as opposed to just the front of his base. (or yours)
Much appreciated advice. Prior to your post, I have taken to scouting a lot more already, and have been a bit more aggressive in my early stages of the game, simply because I have realized I can recoup much faster than my opponent generally (save zerg, I always do either a 10 or 13 pool and drop spines, transition to roaches and slings with an extra queen early on)

I do notice that I tend to carry over the last match into my next, so if the first guy was overly aggressive, I shell up and macro in the next, so I'm trying to break myself of that. Overall I've done well lately, had a few annoying losses, a few really close games, and a pretty high number of wins. At this point, reading builds early on to figure out a response is going to have to be what I improve on.

Slag Pits (13).SC2Replay Here is a win, but I'm sure there is much to be improved on. I have noticed that I really start floating minerals a lot as I transition to mid game, easily holding over 1000 or more, what should I be doing with them? Expand even more (not big on it, I lose a lot of my expos)? More overlords? Queens? Lings?
 
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Last edited by kazan; 06-22-2011 at 05:38 PM.
Calx
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104 - 06-22-2011, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
I do notice that I tend to carry over the last match into my next, so if the first guy was overly aggressive, I shell up and macro in the next, so I'm trying to break myself of that. Overall I've done well lately, had a few annoying losses, a few really close games, and a pretty high number of wins. At this point, reading builds early on to figure out a response is going to have to be what I improve on.

Slag Pits (13).SC2Replay Here is a win, but I'm sure there is much to be improved on. I have noticed that I really start floating minerals a lot as I transition to mid game, easily holding over 1000 or more, what should I be doing with them? Expand even more (not big on it, I lose a lot of my expos)? More overlords? Queens? Lings?
1. SC is just like poker. You play the same game repeatedly with different opponents, so you just have to get into the mentality that every game is different. I like to practice builds 1 at a time, so when I focus on a build and do it 10 games in a row, you will quickly notice that you do not produce the same type of game out of your opponent 10 games in a row. What your opponent does in response to your build is equally important, if not more important, than your build itself.

2. I gotta go run some errands so I can't watch that replay just yet, but when it comes to minerals stacking up (happens to every race) you just gotta be handy with the various methods of mineral dumping that every race has. Improving your macro will reduce the # of spare minerals you have, but here are some suggestions for zerg mineral dumping

- [Defensive Mode] spam lings/spines
- [Offensive Mode] spam lings (if victory is imminent) spam drones (if they are contained but cannot attack back anytime soon, i.e. bunker block vs roaches rush)
- [Economic Macro] expansions. if you want to go mega expand mode, expand twice at once and spam drones @ your main base(s) so that you'll have drones ready to go for those new expansions. this is for the situations where your opponent is severely, severely crippled and you feel like grabbing a ****load of money. usually if you can double expand, you already won the game and are just sealing it...
- [Defensive Mode + They have Drops] drop a few spines at every base (like you did in the replay i watched) in anticipation of drops, spam lings because they're fast and are best suited to deal with drops provided they get there before the drop lands. having a group of lings stalk the dropships will stop the drop as they will instantly kill anything that comes out 1-by-1
- [Defensive Mode + You scouted Air] spam spores

Queen and overlords are always decent too.

If you could zip up a bunch of replays or something that would be appreciated so I could just download them all at once and watch them later. I dunno how fast I'll get to downloading these all 1 by 1 and stuff.
 
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Last edited by Calx; 06-22-2011 at 05:51 PM.
2good@tribes.com
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105 - 06-22-2011, 09:26 PM
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lol i dont play anymore thats why i come on a forum for a game that is a decade old (also best of the best at tribes as well) anyhow, gonna upload a few games if you'd guys like to watch. ill post a replay vs all matchups. Some bonus ones will include TT1 and the infamous Pride (biggest GM ALL INer on NA). enjoy

vsTT1.SC2Replay

ZvTPRIDEallin.SC2Replay

ZvZ.SC2Replay

ZvT.SC2Replay

ZvP.SC2Replay
 
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kazan
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106 - 06-23-2011, 01:54 AM
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You're pretty good, not gonna lie. You could probably beat me with micro alone. Still doesn't make you anything but a elitist asshat and troll.
 
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2good@tribes.com
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107 - 06-23-2011, 08:28 AM
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I know that's what I am, but the reason why I was good is cause i dont ask stupid questions on forums asking for help, forum scrubs will probably not help you. Like i've said before, study replays of GOOD players (pros), watch pro streams, and watch GSL. Besides having good mechanics which is #1 most important thing in starcraft, a solid understanding of the game comes #2. Hope the replays helped you bud
 
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Calx
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108 - 06-24-2011, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2good@tribes.com View Post
I know that's what I am, but the reason why I was good is cause i dont ask stupid questions on forums asking for help, forum scrubs will probably not help you. Like i've said before, study replays of GOOD players (pros), watch pro streams, and watch GSL. Besides having good mechanics which is #1 most important thing in starcraft, a solid understanding of the game comes #2. Hope the replays helped you bud
ill second this i suppose, people at least as good as i am don't usually put much effort out in giving advice to sub diamond players because it's a completely different level
 
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hyung
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109 - 06-24-2011, 11:17 AM
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i bet these fags watch day9 dailies and post on teamliquid sc2 strategy forum

u are all newbies and forever will be
 
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kazan
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110 - 06-24-2011, 11:50 PM
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Regardless, I appreciate the assistance you have given me in really knocking out the basic flaws in my play. I lose far less now, and get better with every match because I don't have to focus on what I need to be doing, and more on what my opponent is doing and how to respond and defend against that.
 
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Mojo616
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111 - 06-25-2011, 01:53 AM
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four banelings and you probably win that game...
 
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Calx
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112 - 06-25-2011, 03:36 AM
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i dont read **** i just played a lot of sc1
 
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Ben Dover
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113 - 06-26-2011, 02:57 AM
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!
 
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Julius
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114 - 06-26-2011, 04:28 AM
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IMO you should only be copying builds from pro players up until a certain point(at least high diamond) since you won't have the mechanics required to execute a build of your own efficiently.
I've hit a wall in all 3 of my match-ups before that felt tough to get out of. Even pros experience this. The only way I got out of it was by watching a ton of pro level games from consistent players and copy their builds.

Though there are still a couple things I couldn't answer on my own. Really though, all you need to do is find a build from a pro that you like, and copy that over and over again till you get really good at it, and don't worry so much about each individual game until you get ranked higher.
 
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kazan
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115 - 06-27-2011, 03:22 AM
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At this point, almost all of my losses come from a decision to try and play too aggressive in my early macro, and lack of focus on a solid defense. Very, very rarely do I lose once I hit the mid-late game, and only then if I really ****ed up bad on scouting and unit comp. With zerg, I can recoup losses so quickly and so efficiently for proper comp that its pretty much no contest once I start pushing. I've also begun improving my micro some, and utilizing micro intense units such as infestors and roach/ling/hydra combos more productively.

I don't see the point in copying builds outright, since for the most part, I'm still not at the level to really understand a lot of the why of doing it, so its lost on me, and generally find it to make me less strategically flexible in mindset. That being said, I'm looking into the Spanishiwa Build, since I've been doing a delayed gas variant anyway.

Generally I tend to turtle up pretty hard, since most games at my level are pretty much either big hard rushes all in at the early onset, or mutual turtle to big power units. I change how I play depending on how fast I see the expansions going up, and I comp/harass pretty decently to keep them slowed and constantly moving around the map and distracted, on top of much better creep.

Dunno what league I should be in, but I've been top bronze for some time now with very few losses for a while.
 
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Julius
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116 - 06-27-2011, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
I don't see the point in copying builds outright, since for the most part, I'm still not at the level to really understand a lot of the why of doing it, so its lost on me, and generally find it to make me less strategically flexible in mindset. That being said, I'm looking into the Spanishiwa Build, since I've been doing a delayed gas variant anyway.
I can safely say that at bronze level, your understanding for why you do anything in the game is pretty minimal, so you might as well do something that is proven to work.

Just a couple days ago, you posted a shakuras replay where you double extractor tricked, 14 pooled, floated 500 minerals in the opening minutes of the game, and then made 2 spine crawlers in your main. No pro would ever ever ever use this build. You don't have to know why, all you need to know that it is really bad, super easy to correct, and you'll get an enormous advantage using a competent opener compared to what you're doing now.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerg_Strategy

At bronze I'd prob suggest you do a 14/14 gas pool then zergling speed in all your match-ups.
 
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Last edited by Julius; 06-27-2011 at 09:37 AM.
2good@tribes.com
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117 - 06-27-2011, 09:02 AM
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dark volcanic why dont u look at my replays and try to emulate the way i play, i was nasty back in ze day
 
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Veniggs
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118 - 06-27-2011, 09:45 AM
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you don't need to have a deep understanding of starcraft 2 strategy at bronze (or silver, gold, plat, diamond, or maybe even masters).
 
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Calx
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119 - 06-27-2011, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Julius View Post
I can safely say that at bronze level, your understanding for why you do anything in the game is pretty minimal, so you might as well do something that is proven to work.

Just a couple days ago, you posted a shakuras replay where you double extractor tricked, 14 pooled, floated 500 minerals in the opening minutes of the game, and then made 2 spine crawlers in your main. No pro would ever ever ever use this build. You don't have to know why, all you need to know that it is really bad, super easy to correct, and you'll get an enormous advantage using a competent opener compared to what you're doing now.

Zerg Strategy - Liquipedia Starcraft 2 Wiki

At bronze I'd prob suggest you do a 14/14 gas pool then zergling speed in all your match-ups.
yea, the first 20ish supply of every game should be relatively predetermined. build orders don't need to be EXACTLY copied but the first 4-5 buildings are usually exactly the same every time for good players unless it is a specific build they are doing
 
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2good@tribes.com
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120 - 06-27-2011, 03:30 PM
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u should try 3 hatch before pool if u against 2rax, cause if theys kills you main base u have 2 xtras
 
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