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kazan
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Old
41 - 05-26-2011, 02:08 AM
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Okay, so here is a match from about 30 minutes ago, and the guy used a 6rax, and did a solid micro on my drone scout after finishing a wall in, so I was already ****ed by the time my OL got there to do any scouting. I really don't know what I would have done in this match up to stop it, because he was pounding me in macro early on.

I already spotted a few mistakes I made, like forgetting my second queen until extremely late after being supply capped for a short time, not sacrificing my OL for a decent scout just to have some prep, maybe to wall with crawlers or something, but the game was literally only 8 minutes long as it was and by that point I was going to be fighting just to keep my econ up while he macro'd mass marines.

Xel'Naga
 
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Fartypants
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42 - 05-26-2011, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
Okay, so here is a match from about 30 minutes ago, and the guy used a 6rax, and did a solid micro on my drone scout after finishing a wall in, so I was already ****ed by the time my OL got there to do any scouting. I really don't know what I would have done in this match up to stop it, because he was pounding me in macro early on.

I already spotted a few mistakes I made, like forgetting my second queen until extremely late after being supply capped for a short time, not sacrificing my OL for a decent scout just to have some prep, maybe to wall with crawlers or something, but the game was literally only 8 minutes long as it was and by that point I was going to be fighting just to keep my econ up while he macro'd mass marines.

Xel'Naga
I'm typing out this post as I watch your replay.
1)it took about a year for you to send out your first overlord, and it looks to be going somewhere pointless
2)canceling that drone to make an overlord sets you back a TON, should have just rolled w/ the ****up and done extractor tricked out another drone
3)drone scouting way too early
4)your drone wont get surrounded if you click on minerals to scout. also you should probably 14gas/14pool vs T if you dont 15hatch on xelnaga
5) why are you making a roach warren? you scouted a rax and no gas
6) you're at 19 supply and floating 500 minerals and still haven't expanded - oh wait you're building a hatchery in your base...
7) now you're teching to lair on 1 gas and 1 base - what's the point
8) you engaged a ball of marines at the bottom of your ramp where you couldnt surround. also you have 900 minerals at this point

you lost this game because you dont have a basic understanding of how to play zerg vs terran, and i'll assume in all matchups. go watch vods of idras stream.

Justin.tv - eg_idra - Videos
 
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Old
43 - 05-26-2011, 07:18 PM
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If you're online tonight, I'd be happy to do some practice matches vs. whatever race you want me to play. We can work on 1 basic build for each matchup to get you up to speed.

At anything under Diamond, you should really just have 1 non-cheese build order than you can nail 100% of the time. Less to worry about lets you focus on mechanics, which, by the look of it, are your biggest issue.
 
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kazan
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Old
44 - 05-26-2011, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fartypants View Post
I'm typing out this post as I watch your replay.
1)it took about a year for you to send out your first overlord, and it looks to be going somewhere pointless
2)canceling that drone to make an overlord sets you back a TON, should have just rolled w/ the ****up and done extractor tricked out another drone
3)drone scouting way too early
4)your drone wont get surrounded if you click on minerals to scout. also you should probably 14gas/14pool vs T if you dont 15hatch on xelnaga
5) why are you making a roach warren? you scouted a rax and no gas
6) you're at 19 supply and floating 500 minerals and still haven't expanded - oh wait you're building a hatchery in your base...
7) now you're teching to lair on 1 gas and 1 base - what's the point
8) you engaged a ball of marines at the bottom of your ramp where you couldnt surround. also you have 900 minerals at this point

you lost this game because you dont have a basic understanding of how to play zerg vs terran, and i'll assume in all matchups. go watch vods of idras stream.

Justin.tv - eg_idra - Videos
I will admit I am absolutely terrible against terran, my worst match up by far. I suck at reading them. However, I was just not even thinking when playing this match, I was tired, it was the end of the night.

Too early? How late should I be scouting? Because I would have been walled out if I had sent it much later. As for my OL, I just send it out opposite of whatever direction my drone goes, probably not the best for a smaller map like Xelnaga. Also, I'm not sure I understand about the target the mineral to scout.

So is 2hatch in the main not a standard zerg play anymore? I know it was somewhat common back shortly after launch? For roaches, idk, probably should have gone baneling w/ speed. I was tired and hadn't played for about a week. The plan was to tech burrow and roach burrowed movement, since he didn't have observers to stop them, to harrass his econ and do some damage.

My micro sucks. No doubt there.
 
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Last edited by kazan; 05-26-2011 at 10:20 PM.
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Old
45 - 05-26-2011, 10:26 PM
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Standard play is either:

15 hatch (at natural), 14 pool, 14 gas

or

14 pool, 14 gas, 21 hatch (at natural)

or

13 hatch (at natural), 15 pool, no gas til 40 supply

The only time you should build a hatch not at a mineral patch, generally called a "macro hatch," is later in the game where you are going mass ling, and have a ton of extra money and not enough larvae to spend it on. Otherwise, avoid doing it. If you have extra money before you have 3 mining bases, it's because your macro is having issues.
 
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Fartypants
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46 - 05-27-2011, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
I will admit I am absolutely terrible against terran, my worst match up by far. I suck at reading them. However, I was just not even thinking when playing this match, I was tired, it was the end of the night.

Too early? How late should I be scouting? Because I would have been walled out if I had sent it much later. As for my OL, I just send it out opposite of whatever direction my drone goes, probably not the best for a smaller map like Xelnaga. Also, I'm not sure I understand about the target the mineral to scout.

So is 2hatch in the main not a standard zerg play anymore? I know it was somewhat common back shortly after launch? For roaches, idk, probably should have gone baneling w/ speed. I was tired and hadn't played for about a week. The plan was to tech burrow and roach burrowed movement, since he didn't have observers to stop them, to harrass his econ and do some damage.

My micro sucks. No doubt there.
Terran are going to wall off, it's a fact of life.

If you even send a drone scout at all, you want to do it around 17 - and then the only reason is to see if they're 2raxing you (and if they are you want to see if they pull a bunch of scvs)
 
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kazan
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47 - 05-29-2011, 04:43 AM
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btw, none of that was at all sarcastic or defensive, this is all **** I really didn't or don't know because I haven't bothered to read up on anything since I last played some 38 weeks ago, and the extent of my RTS experience is limited to about 3 months of SC on unlimited mineral maps and massing carriers and cannon walls.

I want to not suck at it, but I don't care about being great at it either, so I don't really want to watch vids for hours on end.
 
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kazan
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48 - 05-30-2011, 03:43 PM
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And so, it seems that my very largest flaw in my entire gameplay was the 1 base 2 hatch thing. I've won significantly more games now that I'm quick expanding at around 30 food, which is pretty much when I'm sitting around with nothing to do but wait on larva to pop. I'm quickly progressing and will probably move into silver again in my next handful of matches.

I do run into the issue of my nat being significantly abused by harasses, many times even losing the first hatch, any ideas on that?

Also, thoughts on 9 pooling? Save for ZvZ? Had it pulled on me and there was literally nothing I could do, not enough army, not enough macro to build one that early.
 
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bruceleee
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49 - 05-30-2011, 04:00 PM
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Good luck defending vs the 3-rax marine scv all-ins that are so popular right now. Zergs have it pretty bad defending it if they don't see it coming.
 
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kazan
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50 - 05-30-2011, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bruceleee View Post
Good luck defending vs the 3-rax marine scv all-ins that are so popular right now. Zergs have it pretty bad defending it if they don't see it coming.
I scout pretty religiously against terran when I drop my expand at 18 or so. I did hold it off, until he dropped 3 more rax and pinned me in, despite going blings to try and counter the bioball walling me in.

He wasn't that good, he just got the drop on me.
 
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2good@tribes.com
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51 - 06-02-2011, 05:16 PM
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R O F L

nothing else to say except you ****in blow hahaha
 
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kazan
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Old
52 - 06-12-2011, 09:54 PM
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Another game where I just cannot see where I went wrong:

http://www.mediafire.com/?3qcnz3yedxqd468

Speedling expand, got tied up, missed hitting my speed upgrade, but really had no effect, tbh.

I'm tapped out for minerals pretty much the entire time, I've scouted he's going for an early stalker/zealot push, so I go for hydras with lings, and I get raped 8 minutes in, with him having resources so far ahead of me I can't even wrap my head around it, considering we had roughly the same collection rate, and I was quite literally pressed for more minerals the entire ****ing time. I don't get how he rolls in with twice the units I have and pushes me under, while having 1k min to spare, while I'm struggling to get second tier going at all while trying to push macro.

Today has just pissed me off, honestly, I've gone up against 3 admitted diamonds playing bronze accounts, and lost to repeatedly to every matchup I've gone up against.
 
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Last edited by kazan; 06-12-2011 at 10:20 PM.
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Old
53 - 06-12-2011, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
Another game where I just cannot see where I went wrong:

Free File Hosting and Online Backup Storage.

Speedling expand, got tied up, missed hitting my speed upgrade, but really had no effect, tbh.

I'm tapped out for minerals pretty much the entire time, I've scouted he's going for an early stalker/zealot push, so I go for hydras with lings, and I get raped 8 minutes in, with him having resources so far ahead of me I can't even wrap my head around it, considering we had roughly the same collection rate, and I was quite literally pressed for more minerals the entire ****ing time. I don't get how he rolls in with twice the units I have and pushes me under, while having 1k min to spare, while I'm struggling to get second tier going at all while trying to push macro.

Today has just pissed me off, honestly, I've gone up against 3 admitted diamonds playing bronze accounts, and lost to repeatedly to every matchup I've gone up against.
i cant d/l from that link for some reason
 
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kazan
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Old
54 - 06-12-2011, 10:15 PM
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hmmm, this is what I get for using a free file host, sec fixing

fixed, new link: http://www.mediafire.com/?3qcnz3yedxqd468

Having followed a good deal of advice, I have stuck with working one solid build order, generally, and that has been the sling fast expand. I initially stumbled upon it on my own because it just flowed quite naturally with the progression of minerals and options available, and later learned that it is in fact a standard build order. My understanding is that it is fairly safe and robust. My own play generally shows it has all kinds of options open for easy harass against unprotected targets in the early game, as well as leaving plenty of room for some crawler defense. I have also started moving away from roaches a bit, and more to an infestor or two and adding more mid game for better control and low level unit dmg, as well as easy surprise attacks through the infest terran play.
 
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Last edited by kazan; 06-12-2011 at 10:42 PM.
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Old
55 - 06-12-2011, 11:14 PM
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On that game, I saw at least 3, maybe 4 game-ending mistakes.

1. Lair at 4 minutes is WAY too early. The earliest you'll ever need it is 6-7 minutes. That set you back a ton of early resources.

2. When he attacked you at the 8 min mark, you only had 19 drones. On 2 bases. You need to be spending your money are drones, drones, drones. You have hydra den, infestation pit, and lair before you hit 20 drones.

3. As Day9 says, the person who has more **** will win. However, with only 19 drones, you couldn't make any units. When you are at 25 supply, he was at 47! This was before the attack even. You should never be behind as zerg. Usually, after we both hit 20 supply, I start to get way ahead... 10 supply at 40, 20 supply at 80, etc.

4. You were hard supply blocked at 28/28. Then, he killed your overlord. You couldn't build units for like 2 minutes. Ouch.


Suggestions: Start with the same build, but make 8 lings. Push his front door, let him know you have units, then go home. Leave maybe 1 ling outside his front door.

Make literally nothing but drones, your 2 queens, and you hatch until the 6 minutes mark. Every mineral to drone that you can. Also, build your overlord with no less than 3 open supply... so, 15/18, 23/26, 31/34, etc. After you're on two bases, build 2 overlords every time you inject larve at your two bases.

At the 6:30 mark, throw down spines if you're worried.

THEN, if you see him move out, start pumping units. As zerg, you want to avoid making really any units until the 50-60 supply mark f you can avoid it. IF you played this way, when he moved out at 47 supply, you would be at 2 saturated based at 60 supply, and could have pumped out an easy 28 lings (2 larve cycles, one for each base) to support your 3 spines before his tiny attack arrived.
 
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kazan
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Old
56 - 06-12-2011, 11:20 PM
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right on, I just hate getting pushed early and not being able to micro out of it, but that's not been happening much lately, so I guess you're right.
 
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Old
57 - 06-12-2011, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
right on, I just hate getting pushed early and not being able to micro out of it, but that's not been happening much lately, so I guess you're right.
Go play another game and try that build i just suggested and post the replay
 
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kazan
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Old
58 - 06-13-2011, 12:13 AM
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didn't save the replay, but it worked out much, much better on the next two games

I did get pushed in a bit by early harass and cheese build involving extremely early nukes and helions, but it was fairly localized damage and I was able to control it and bounce back to win.

The next game was ZvP and I just crushed the guy, I did get distracted some with microing my battles and harass, and let my minerals get way up, and at one point he did kill a group of OL so I was capped for a small time, but I pretty much rolled over him, colossi/stalkers with a few phoenix for support, but once the colossi were down, I pushed some BLs for extra ground support and that was it. I was also at 3 bases + 2 popping shortly at that point, with plenty of minerals to crank even more units.
 
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59 - 06-13-2011, 12:15 AM
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drones early are the best thing ever
 
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2good@tribes.com
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60 - 06-13-2011, 12:19 AM
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L O L

dark volcanic u r a joker my friend
 
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