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spockhammer
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21 - 05-18-2011, 11:26
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my dick so big i am filthy so much vagina want to be inseminate by me omfg
 
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kazan
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22 - 05-19-2011, 00:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker View Post
With zerg, I had the same issue... Id be ahead, then all of a sudden I'd realize I was on 2 bases at the 14 minute mark.

What I realized was that I should just take a third right after their first push fails. Meaning, if they 4gate, I take my third at the 8-9min mark. If I get the marine tank push, I take the third around 10-11. If I see no push by the 11 min mark, I will start my harass with burrowed infestors or baneling bombs in order to keep them pinned. Anyone who doesn't push me by 11 minutes is going to lose the macro game to me either way.
Excellent, thanks for the tip.

Do you use any sort of timer, or just kinda have it down in your head?
Also, do you expand to a nearby base, or try to put it somewhere out of the way for your third; or perhaps per map? I know a few maps have seriously exposed second expands.
 
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Last edited by kazan; 05-19-2011 at 00:43..
slacker
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23 - 05-19-2011, 01:02
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Just have it in my head. Zerg strength is macro and rebuilding armies, so if I kill an attack, I know I am automatically ahead. Even if we both have no army left, I can get one faster, so the other guy has to regroup and be defensive. That gives me at least 3-4 minutes to take and secure a third.

It's not a perfect science, and generally the idea I use for third base location is: On Xelnaga, or most 1v1 maps, I take the naturally close third. On all 4 player maps, I take the third that's in the opposite direction of the enemy main (usually the main of a different empty spawn location, then later grab the gold or the natural of my ninjas main)

Generally, unless there was a ton of early pressure, my 3rd is finishing around the 9 minute mark. Glance at the clock...suicide overlord at 7min mark. If 8 min comes and goes, and the initial attack has failed, expand. If 8 min comes and there is no attack, poke around with lings and make sure he is not taking a quick 3rd and use suicide overlord to figure out if you need to make units.

It's all kind of an imperfect science, but experiment with it. Learn to hold off early cheese, the marine tank push, 4 gate, etc. All of those hit before 8 min. If you are alive, you take a third either way.

Here is a replay of mine from the other day... a few important things to note:

1. Watch my initial drone scout (or just watch game from my POV)... I saw he had 1 gas, so I stole the other. This limits him to Marines only, delayed marine tank push, or hellions. I put down 3 spines right away because I expected hellions, but when none came, I grabbed my third at the 8:30 mark and easily defended the marine tank push.

2. Keep the income tab and the ctrl+n supply bar open. Note that I had 80 drones at like the 11 min mark, and a 15 supply advantage when I was only at 40 supply. At one point, I was 80 supply up after 1 tiny baneling harass. The fact that he didn't pressure me early means I should almost always win any macro game, especially vs. Terran

3. Note the super-safe 13 hatch, 15 pool opening, no gas, with automatic spines... I didn't for a minute, even when I expected blue flame hellions, feel at all unsafe. It also didn't keep me from my 80 drones.

4. I did really terrible this game... I forgot to overlord scout at 7 min mark, completely forgot a 20-muta flock for like 5 minutes just outside his main, then accidentally attacked a group of marines with it, and had pretty bad baneling micro. Hell, I even misclicked literally 15 times during my baneling drop and almost lost like 5 full overlords of banes.

5. Even with my flaws, I, a Gold-level Zerg who doesn't ladder much, completely wrecked this Masters-level Terran. I denied his third until the 25 min mark, burrowed lings all over the place, and kept him pinned. I counter-attacked with lings and banes whenever his army was away from home. And, most importantly... I had 80 drones at the 11 min mark. With macro, ANYONE can win with Zerg.

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B66...thkey=CNWV0OwF
 
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Last edited by slacker; 05-19-2011 at 01:22..
Calx
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24 - 05-19-2011, 01:16
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the best thing you can do to improve as zerg is not think that zerg is the weakest race

thinking that will only hold you back, there are tournament-winning zergs and plenty in grandmaster

the races are plenty balanced. if you feel the other races are truly stronger/easier/cheesier you should just play them until you realize that the grass was just greener
 
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kazan
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25 - 05-19-2011, 03:52
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TY for the advice and replay slacker, gonna look over the replay tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calx View Post
the best thing you can do to improve as zerg is not think that zerg is the weakest race

thinking that will only hold you back, there are tournament-winning zergs and plenty in grandmaster

the races are plenty balanced. if you feel the other races are truly stronger/easier/cheesier you should just play them until you realize that the grass was just greener
I don't really consider zerg to be weak, especially now.
But, as according to my match history, 34 weeks ago, they really were, and I was high silver. I'd get stomped by pretty much everything because there was no strong transition from early to mid. Roaches got ****ed over by tons of other units, so between going sling/bling and getting hydras/mutas, I was getting smashed far more than I was managing to outmaneuver and win. Bioball+tanks, mass VR, 2 bunker wall off to early thors, massive 4gate rushes with charge; most of that has been taken care of, as well as buffs to roaches, makes zerg far less susceptible to that vulnerable 2-3 minutes in transition to lair units. Granted a proper early roach rush was pretty much domination against t/p, it never really allowed for late game development if it failed, so I tried to avoid it.
If I was allowed to get moving into my 2nd tier and on, I generally won, because I literally spent 3 weeks doing nothing but macro practice while in game.

Now I feel like I'm on a much more even grounding units-wise, but I'm a bit behind in strategy and transitions, where as even some bronze players have much stronger transitions and late game strategy than I do, as well as just having a much more solid feel for how a game is progressing and where things stand. Most of it will come in a few weeks time of playing, just from playing and seeing where things go. I'm looking forward to not sucking. I'm also not raging at losing anymore, that helps.
 
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Brad998
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26 - 05-19-2011, 07:54
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Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
TY for the advice and replay slacker, gonna look over the replay tomorrow.



I don't really consider zerg to be weak, especially now.
But, as according to my match history, 34 weeks ago, they really were, and I was high silver. I'd get stomped by pretty much everything because there was no strong transition from early to mid. Roaches got ****ed over by tons of other units, so between going sling/bling and getting hydras/mutas, I was getting smashed far more than I was managing to outmaneuver and win. Bioball+tanks, mass VR, 2 bunker wall off to early thors, massive 4gate rushes with charge; most of that has been taken care of, as well as buffs to roaches, makes zerg far less susceptible to that vulnerable 2-3 minutes in transition to lair units. Granted a proper early roach rush was pretty much domination against t/p, it never really allowed for late game development if it failed, so I tried to avoid it.
If I was allowed to get moving into my 2nd tier and on, I generally won, because I literally spent 3 weeks doing nothing but macro practice while in game.

Now I feel like I'm on a much more even grounding units-wise, but I'm a bit behind in strategy and transitions, where as even some bronze players have much stronger transitions and late game strategy than I do, as well as just having a much more solid feel for how a game is progressing and where things stand. Most of it will come in a few weeks time of playing, just from playing and seeing where things go. I'm looking forward to not sucking. I'm also not raging at losing anymore, that helps.
I'd almost bet that 34 weeks ago you wasn't as good at watching the minimap and scouting.

Zerg HAVE to scout and keep up with whats going on around the map. You will see your win percentage go way up if you do simple things like suicide ovies in at the correct time, keep some lings at his front to watch for a attack or expand.

Watch replays of yourself and that of other better zergs and see what they do.

Spanishiwa's no gas before 40 stays on teir 1 for a VERY long time but it does well because of timings and SCOUTING. When I lose almost all the time is because I messed up and wasn't paying attention. Maybe some of our master leagues and give credence to this, I.E Bendover and Julius.
 
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Julius
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27 - 05-19-2011, 09:26
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I can't comment on the spanishiwa build. I've never used it, not really my style :o but I can tell you already that it doesn't rely on impeccable scouting, but rather an all-purpose defense with queens/spines. With such late gas you have ling speed pretty late, and any stalkers/marines on the map can shut down slow lings very easily if they try. The best thing you can do is probably keep an overlord hidden near the natural to see when/if they expand. Poke up their ramp with slow lings if they let you.

Scouting is incredibly important for most all other zerg styles because you always want/need to know how to respond to your opponents tech choice.
My ZvT strat is a bit vulnerable to drops in the early/mid-game, so I've started getting OL speed out faster after Lair to spread my OL's around the map to spot drops faster. I still need to practice watching the mini-map more though :[ I always get OL speed right after Lair vs Protoss because right around when that finishes is when you see what tech path the Toss is choosing, big gateway play or robo tech etc. So ya I rely on scouting pretty heavily.
 
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Last edited by Julius; 05-19-2011 at 09:30..
2good@tribes.com
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28 - 05-19-2011, 11:02
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lmao dark volcano, you should listen to players that are good, even if u think i am a "****ty poster" I speak the truth. I dominate you, and everyone who posts in this forum so listen up. The best way to get better is to admit you ****ing suck and just get better. Your macro sucks if u are silver, your micro sucks, your understanding of the game is terrible too.
Watch pro replays if u want to learn how 2 be good, I'd recommend download dimaga's replay, he taught me (indirectly) everything i know.
 
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Brad998
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29 - 05-19-2011, 11:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius View Post
I can't comment on the spanishiwa build. I've never used it, not really my style :o but I can tell you already that it doesn't rely on impeccable scouting, but rather an all-purpose defense with queens/spines. With such late gas you have ling speed pretty late, and any stalkers/marines on the map can shut down slow lings very easily if they try. The best thing you can do is probably keep an overlord hidden near the natural to see when/if they expand. Poke up their ramp with slow lings if they let you.

Scouting is incredibly important for most all other zerg styles because you always want/need to know how to respond to your opponents tech choice.
My ZvT strat is a bit vulnerable to drops in the early/mid-game, so I've started getting OL speed out faster after Lair to spread my OL's around the map to spot drops faster. I still need to practice watching the mini-map more though :[ I always get OL speed right after Lair vs Protoss because right around when that finishes is when you see what tech path the Toss is choosing, big gateway play or robo tech etc. So ya I rely on scouting pretty heavily.
I meant the scouting with in that build as in leaving just a few lings outside his base to know when to build more spines/lings.

Also, what do you tend to do in your match ups? Just curious
 
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Julius
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30 - 05-19-2011, 12:49
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Haha, that's a pretty in-depth question to answer but I'll give it a shot

ZvZ I play pretty standard, 15/15 hatch first most the time unless it's something like xel'naga, then I'll 14/14 gas/pool into ling/bane, but it all ends up in a roach/infestor midgame. I'm fairly comfortable in my ZvZ these days except for my +2 upgrades & infestation pit timings, still figuring out the best place on those. It mostly depends on what I scout after lair. Sometimes zergs will do huge roach pushes off 2 bases with few upgrades, and if I'm caught with my pants down upgrading 2/2 while it happens then that's 15 roaches worth of gas I missed out on, it makes a big deal.

ZvP has changed a lot pretty recently with the abundance of roach/ling timings vs 3 gate expand thanks to popularization by Nestea and Losira. I've been liking Losira's 36 warren 8 roach push a lot(when i scout a lot of sentries), since it puts on pressure and punishes a greedy toss without being all-in.

Toss have it pretty rough right now since if they try to push out against this, they'll flat out die, but if they sit back and play too defensive and the zerg takes an earlier third and drones up, it could leave them behind as well.

As the game progresses I stick to the standard roach/hydra/corruptor, getting drop as they take their third and do double pronged attacks/drops to pick off nexus and vital tech structures. Get a couple of infestors as I get closer to broodlord tech, and then pretty much ride it out with those.

ZvT I 15/15 hatch first usually, while doing 14/14 gas first on more exposed naturals(xel'naga again). I really like early upgrades in this match-up, and will start +1 melee before lair, and drop a 2nd evo after lair to pump double carapace/melee upgrades after that in conjunction with baneling/overlord speed.

I've had a lot of success with roach/ling/bane in the early/mid-game, and usually drop my warren as soon as I see/suspect factory tech. Against the currently popular marine/tank, you send your roaches in first to soak marine/tank shots while flanking with ling/bane, and the upgraded ling/banes just ruin everything when they get safely in range.
I don't start muta production until after I have my 2/2 upgrades started, which is why I mentioned getting overlord speed previously :O and why I'm vulnerable to drops earlier on. But yea I usually get about 15 or so of those to harass and do their muta thing while I tech to hive and get a couple infestors on the way. After that it's your typical broodlord/infestor/corruptor or less often ultra/ling/bane/infestor if they don't have too many tanks.
 
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Last edited by Julius; 05-19-2011 at 17:08..
Shiloh
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31 - 05-19-2011, 16:53
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Originally Posted by 2good@tribes.com View Post
lmao dark volcano, you should listen to players that are good, even if u think i am a "****ty poster" I speak the truth. I dominate you, and everyone who posts in this forum so listen up. The best way to get better is to admit you ****ing suck and just get better. Your macro sucks if u are silver, your micro sucks, your understanding of the game is terrible too.
Watch pro replays if u want to learn how 2 be good, I'd recommend download dimaga's replay, he taught me (indirectly) everything i know.
but he is a far better and more helpful poster than you will ever be.
 
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2good@tribes.com
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32 - 05-20-2011, 12:05
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lol you guys r so awful, learn 2 take criticism. the best way 2 improve is to admit u suck and just get better, simple as that.

grow up scrubs
 
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Brad998
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33 - 05-20-2011, 12:46
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Originally Posted by 2good@tribes.com View Post
lol you guys r so awful, learn 2 take criticism. the best way 2 improve is to admit u suck and just get better, simple as that.

grow up scrubs
meybe u sould lern toz use grammarz?

Possibly people do not accept what you have to say because all you do is bash them? Many of us play this game for fun, and not to compete for ultra gosu cash. This is a gaming forum, if you have something constructive to say, say it other wise maybe it would be best if you didn't speak.
 
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2good@tribes.com
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34 - 05-20-2011, 14:03
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you guys are here asking questions so to me it would seem like you guys want to improve at the game you play for "fun" and im telling you how to, in my books thats constructive. You dont have fun when you lose for the most part in starcraft 2 so if you enjoy losing then good for you.

I other hand have little to no sc1 experience and within a year compete and play with the best players in NA, listen up boys. If you aint grandmaster u aint ****, these fools cant help you out, if you want to improve, you play more and get better lol?? simple as **** man. Watch first person streams of "Pros" and do your best to emulate.. so ez..
 
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2good@tribes.com
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35 - 05-20-2011, 14:06
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also julius it sounds like you are probably decent due to how much you keep up with current metagame in korea via studying GSL. keep at it
 
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Julius
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36 - 05-20-2011, 14:20
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I watch and read 10x more starcraft than I play.
 
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JohnnyX
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37 - 05-20-2011, 14:54
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Like 2good@tribes, I have also found that the best way to give advice and have it taken seriously is to constantly belittle the people you're trying to advise.

It's like you're motivating them -while- informing them if you constantly call them scrubs and tell them they aren't ****. Also, I like to mix in as little advice as possible when asked questions, it keeps them on the edge of their seat and interested in what I have to say.

Teaching101, learn it scrubs
 
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2good@tribes.com
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38 - 05-20-2011, 15:43
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**** johnny knows whats up, you can do big things with that mindset

props 2 u
 
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spockhammer
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39 - 05-22-2011, 13:01
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Incompetent People Really Have No Clue, Studies Find / They're blind to own failings, others' skills


interesting article on incompetence

i guess 2g00d cares 2 much about other ppl getting good

he helped me inprove a great deal in t1 when i was a lil pup 16 year of age

i think most of these guys in here r just blinded by hate

like anything in life u want 2 get good at 2 reach the top tier u must syphon the gold from the poop

99% of information is poop and 1% is gold

it is ur own responsibility to find the gold in 2g00d's posts

and there is plenty of it

gg
 
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slacker
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40 - 05-25-2011, 14:01
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Anyone want to 1v1 me? I'm a Gold zerg. I don't ladder enough, but in custom 1v1s, I think I'm playing pretty well. I've taken a few masters players down, but my ZvZ is weak and my ZvP is average.

slacker.412
 
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