So I'm going to try again, and not suck this time. by kazan - TribalWar Forums
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kazan
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1 - 05-15-2011, 04:26
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What's changed? Zerg still the little worthless ***** of the game? Am I going to rage quit again playing zerg?
 
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-Masqu3-
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2 - 05-15-2011, 04:53
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zerg's great if you can macro and harass.... learn the 2base ling roach timing.
 
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Julius
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3 - 05-15-2011, 08:06
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Zerg is slowly getting better, some things still frustrate me a lot though.
 
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Fartypants
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4 - 05-15-2011, 11:43
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you'll still make a dumb mistake and lose to some stupid garbage timing push / allin as zerg

that will never change
 
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2good@tribes.com
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5 - 05-15-2011, 16:13
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nah if u r good u can win any game, if u lose it means u played worse than your opponent and either learn 2 get good or stfu.
 
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kazan
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6 - 05-15-2011, 17:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2good@tribes.com View Post
nah if u r good u can win any game, if u lose it means u played worse than your opponent and either learn 2 get good or stfu.
Yeah, you're pretty much a **** poster, so I don't care about your input. I don't care how good you actually are.

Also, I'm bad. Working my way in silver league atm. :\
 
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Julius
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7 - 05-15-2011, 18:18
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Zerg is especially hard at lower rankings because you don't really have the knowledge or scouting yet to read builds, and thus don't know how to prepare properly :o Zerg takes a bit more time and insight to play than the other races.

edit: now that I think about it, builds at silver league make no sense anyway so it probably doesn't help that much trying to read them. Probably best to just get by on macro and refining your own builds haha.
 
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Last edited by Julius; 05-15-2011 at 18:25..
slacker
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8 - 05-15-2011, 19:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius View Post
Zerg is especially hard at lower rankings because you don't really have the knowledge or scouting yet to read builds, and thus don't know how to prepare properly :o Zerg takes a bit more time and insight to play than the other races.

edit: now that I think about it, builds at silver league make no sense anyway so it probably doesn't help that much trying to read them. Probably best to just get by on macro and refining your own builds haha.
Silver strat that worked for me:

13 hatch, 15 pool, lots of queens (5+ on 2 base) and spines while you saturate 2 bases (only make queens and drones for units. No gas until 40 supply mark. This is Spanishiwa build for newbs). Lair at 7-8min, immediately make overseer at base for cloaked harass units and overseer to scout enemy base. Take third at 8-9 min mark.

Then, tons of lings, roaches, mutas, or whatever.

Why this build works in silver: At the cost of economy, you counter 4-gate, DT rush, 2-rax, cloak banshee, void ray harass, hellion harass, as well at setting yourself up for a huge push.

This build would never work at anything higher than high gold (I'm high gold and still win most games), but at lower levels, combined with solid macro, it counters virtually every harass build that zergs lose to. Most lower players rely on the harass to win, and when it doesn't, they're screwed.
 
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hastie
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9 - 05-16-2011, 13:53
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Are you saying that the Spanishiwa build only works at hight gold lvl? or just that your version of it does. Spanishiwa does the same build for all 3 matchups and is rank 16 grandmaster.
 
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slacker
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10 - 05-16-2011, 14:15
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Originally Posted by hastie View Post
Are you saying that the Spanishiwa build only works at hight gold lvl? or just that your version of it does. Spanishiwa does the same build for all 3 matchups and is rank 16 grandmaster.
Just this version works at lower levels. Span changes the quantity of queens and spines based on scouting, but this build doesn't actually require scouting. Because of this, it isn't as efficient, but vs Gold and lower, it doesn't matter.
 
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Julius
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11 - 05-16-2011, 14:28
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Is this somehow different from 4 gating every game? Yea it works up to a certain level, but it's gonna plateau and not gonna make you any better. Work on the strats that work in grandmaster if you really wanna improve ;o
 
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kazan
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12 - 05-16-2011, 16:11
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Originally Posted by Julius View Post
Is this somehow different from 4 gating every game? Yea it works up to a certain level, but it's gonna plateau and not gonna make you any better. Work on the strats that work in grandmaster if you really wanna improve ;o
I need to work on the fundamentals before I move into strats. I hate scouting as zerg because its so cost inefficient. Trying to force myself to scout more.
I also am bad about keeping up on injects late game, but I've gotten better about doing proper expands.

Also, what do you do for super walled terran? Guy had walled off before I could even get a drone to his ramp, and had enough marines by the time OL got there it died before getting any useful view. From then on I was fighting blind.

Also, I lost on that queen strat in zvz, had two queens when he pushed in a bunch of lings 14+, probably a 9 pool or something. I probably micro'd poorly on top of it all, but yeah.
 
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Julius
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13 - 05-16-2011, 17:11
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Nothing you can do when playing blind except play super safe. Keep zerglings at the watch towers, occasionally poke up his ramp with lings. I get an evo chamber and roach warren usually as well. I like fast upgrades and I favor roach/ling/bane in the early game anyway so it's not a complete waste.

On some maps like Tal'darim, Shakuras, Slag pits, Shattered Temple, Scrap and so on, you can get an overlord behind the back of their base. Use them to check how many gas they took.
0 gas = FE or mass marine.
1 gas = hellions and/or rax with addons/upgrades.
2 gas = tanks/blue flame hellions/banshees and other various starport/factory tech
 
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Last edited by Julius; 05-16-2011 at 17:13..
kazan
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14 - 05-16-2011, 18:05
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This queen strat is kinda hit or miss it seems. Really open to early harass from early pool/rax.
 
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slacker
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15 - 05-17-2011, 02:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
This queen strat is kinda hit or miss it seems. Really open to early harass from early pool/rax.
I usually don't do it in zvz... there, I do a 14 pool roach with 21 hatch. Against 2 rax, which is easily scoutable, I just throw down 3 spines and defend with 4 queens instead of 2 spines. Same with hellions.
 
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Brad998
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16 - 05-17-2011, 09:00
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Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
This queen strat is kinda hit or miss it seems. Really open to early harass from early pool/rax.
The build it self is vulnerable to early harass in general, the key is scouting. I send a scout at 10 against zerg to spot any early pools, and then scout at 12/13 depending on map for terran.

Scouting is key, and going blind is really going to hurt. The entire point of this no gas till 40 build is to scout with lings and watch for when they push out so you can have enough spines and position your queens better. Back your queens up in a corner so lings can't get a good surround and try to close off gaps with evo chambers/spines once you reach that point.

If you get 6 pooled there isn't a whole lot you can do except exchange lings back and forth and if he banes, you can either roach or try to micro.


Honestly at your stage of play, working on macroing better will help you more than worrying about builds. As day9 would say, just have more stuff and you'll be fine.
 
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kazan
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17 - 05-17-2011, 19:04
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I'm pretty strong at macro, I think. Maybe I'll up a few replays after tonight and see what you guys think.
 
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slacker
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18 - 05-17-2011, 21:06
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When I have a good macro game, I hit 80 drones at around the 12 min mark. I could go faster, but I like putting on ling pressure to delay expansion and keep them pinned.
 
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kazan
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19 - 05-18-2011, 05:02
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80 would be a stretch, but 60-70 would be no problem at all.
I've managed to find a few of my weak points though: I'm terrible at properly timing expands. I find that I'm out macroing my ability to spend by mid game, but I can't expand properly because while I have a lot of units, I don't feel like its enough to protect a 3rd/4th quickly or properly. I think I may just have a wrong mindset on that in general though.

ZvP I do pretty well, I've found though. ZvT less so, and ZvZ I'm just really bad at.
 
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slacker
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20 - 05-18-2011, 10:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Volcanic View Post
80 would be a stretch, but 60-70 would be no problem at all.
I've managed to find a few of my weak points though: I'm terrible at properly timing expands. I find that I'm out macroing my ability to spend by mid game, but I can't expand properly because while I have a lot of units, I don't feel like its enough to protect a 3rd/4th quickly or properly. I think I may just have a wrong mindset on that in general though.

ZvP I do pretty well, I've found though. ZvT less so, and ZvZ I'm just really bad at.
With zerg, I had the same issue... Id be ahead, then all of a sudden I'd realize I was on 2 bases at the 14 minute mark.

What I realized was that I should just take a third right after their first push fails. Meaning, if they 4gate, I take my third at the 8-9min mark. If I get the marine tank push, I take the third around 10-11. If I see no push by the 11 min mark, I will start my harass with burrowed infestors or baneling bombs in order to keep them pinned. Anyone who doesn't push me by 11 minutes is going to lose the macro game to me either way.
 
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