I think the initial problem was raid choice. 25s have an distinct disadvantage, and that is numbers. In 25s, you will get slackers, no matter how competent the group is. Even if everyone is on-point for the first week or so, eventually a feeling of "ease" can fall over som members. They may feel they don't need to try as hard, gambling on the rest of the raid to carry some of their load. The 20-man in 25 achievements almost validates this, I mean if it can be done with 20 then you don't really need 25 right?

To compound that there's more of a crowd to disperse accountability. Sure healers are tanks are more restricted in that sense, but if a wipe happens and people say "So what went wrong?" the actual people involved are better able to meld into the group and avoid being responsible for it.

10s, on the other hand, is more individualistic. You are 10% of the raid, versus 4% in 25s. If something happens, it's much easier to figure out what went wrong and (more specifically) whose at fault. And it forces people to be more accountable. You don't want to be "that guy" and in 10s it's much easier to be fingered if things go awry.

Adren's problem was there from the get-go, he didn't really want to bother as much with 10s and strictly wanted to do 25s. And no matter how good a player is, if he/she is freshly installed in a 25 there's a much greater chance they'll get a bit lazy and figure they don't need to work as hard and the rest of the raid will help. But when you get seven or eight people thinking that, **** happens.

Hell you can find the evidence in this subforum. I don't see anyone bragging about Ironbound mounts, they are all the Rusted ones.

Boy, I sure wish there were several people in this subforum with Ironbounds to prove you wrong.

Its feannag bro, hes fail on everything, I don't even read his posts anymore, hes just an idiot.

Originally Posted by 9er

Boy, I sure wish there were several people in this subforum with Ironbounds to prove you wrong.

First ones I see are the Rusteds, which implies people focused more on 10s for acheivements before doing 25s acheivements.

Had Adren stuck to the core group he had (and kicked the rest of us late-comers out) and stuck to 10s I doubt he wouldn't have given up on being a leader and gone with Adroit. I wouldn't blame him though I just think psychologically it's easier to do 10s then 25s, less slacking, more owing up, etc.

10s might be easier but if you don't want to challenge yourself to be better, fight harder encounters, and get better purples than that's like saying you'd rather play jv football over varsity...its still football right? Wrong.

Pure, terra, pessi. Ironbounds just to name those I know of and **** I want one. I want people in my guild that hold similar ideals.

so which ppl are making the switch from stk?

having slackers in 25s blows nuts
ive just been sticking to 10s, pvp, and Heroes of Newerth for the past 3 months and having a blast.
still down to transferring one of my char for 10s.

Originally Posted by Adroit

10s might be easier but if you don't want to challenge yourself to be better, fight harder encounters, and get better purples than that's like saying you'd rather play jv football over varsity...its still football right? Wrong.

Pure, terra, pessi. Ironbounds just to name those I know of and **** I want one. I want people in my guild that hold similar ideals.

10s are stupid easy. We ran an Uld10 Monday night to see if we could get 10 alts some 310% mounts in one night and 4 hours later we were successful:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Hard Mode 10s were hard(er) before they nerfed the **** out of them. We wiped for 2 days straight on Mimiron hard before we finally replaced one of our retards and 2 shot him. Ironically I had been suggesting we not bring him when we first started attempts, kid was a ****in retard.

Originally Posted by Adroit

10s might be easier but if you don't want to challenge yourself to be better, fight harder encounters, and get better purples than that's like saying you'd rather play jv football over varsity...its still football right? Wrong.

Pure, terra, pessi. Ironbounds just to name those I know of and **** I want one. I want people in my guild that hold similar ideals.

Maybe, but my point is you should work up to 25s from 10s because of the problems I outlined. People don't know each other that well, more difficult to manage, and less direct accountability from action.

You wipe in a 10, you pretty much know whose fault it was and if it is your's then you think, "I don't want to **** up like that again."

You wipe in a 25, there'll be at people who stay silent or kind shrug and say "oh well, it happens" and the actual problem goes relatively undetected. Sure you can have stats, WWS, etc. but even then it won't truly address the issue.

Originally Posted by Adroit

10s might be easier but if you don't want to challenge yourself to be better, fight harder encounters, and get better purples than that's like saying you'd rather play jv football over varsity...its still football right? Wrong.

Pure, terra, pessi. Ironbounds just to name those I know of and **** I want one. I want people in my guild that hold similar ideals.

F better purples, the big thing is 10's hard is easier (didn't use to be) because its a hell of a lot easier finding 10 smart players, as opposed to 25. We never had a problem in 10's with the right group of people, everyone picked up **** quickly, and didn't **** up. You make it 25, and you throw in about 5 tards who can't pay attention and wipe it for everyone, unfortunately you can't get rid of them, because there were no replacements

It's not only the no-replacements factor. I am not inclined to boot friends of people even if they weren't the best players. We initially set out to make a casual guild of solid players (TWers) that can achieve the majority of the game - not hard modes, not all end game content. We steadily progressed with no problems in SSC/TK, then BT. Then we started losing players and started bringing on friends of friends. That's really when the problems started. Some were excellent, others were terrible, but we kept them all.

If we do join Adroit's guild, I'll be glad. They at least have a strict policy that I'm not willing to enforce, mainly because I know all of these guys for so long and so well. If they recruit a baddie, they remove it. And the biggest plus of all is that I'm not the one filtering or recruiting anyone, nor will I feel guilty when a raid doesn't form, or if we have to take a break.

Originally Posted by Surrealism

Thanks for breaking up our guild, Adriot. Adren is taking some of his close buddies and jumping ship to join you.

The rest of us are screwed, sitting here with our cock in our hands.

Actually, it is all your fault. Way to not show up in NY this summer. Jerk.

Damn you Frank!

ha! broski, jx, warhammer, myself are on gorg alliance.

mode, join my gay alliance guild! pow!

lol are you on gorg too?

no ofc not. im on cenarius.

loto when paid faction changes come out can i raid w u?

Originally Posted by loto

no ofc not. im on cenarius.

come play with us!