Funkalicious
Veteran X
Bah c'mon. It isn't fair to bash a mod because its player models put too much stress on your TNT2 in the year 2003.
[TR2] Team Rabbit 2 has left the building...
- Thread starter mojotooth
- Start date
Like most of the existing T2 community, I approached TR2 (or as I like to call it "FastBreak") with an open mind. I was interested to see what KP and AO (among others) had developed. I was also interested in the "sports aspect" of it. It seemed to be somewhere between soccer and ice hockey, and having played soccer for most of my life and being a fan of hockey, I was hoping for some sort of nice blend of the two.
We got some people together and decided to play in the newly-formed TR2 league. Our players came from Kore and nCn, and CTF on the classic 14 man ladder was our main focus. We would mess around in pubs, trying all sorts of crazy passes and slapshots. We had fun with it, but we didn't spend a lot of time with it. There was no "hook" or "adrenaline rush" that we had commonly associated with Tribes or even T2 classic. We'd pub prior to a match to get warmed up, but there was no real draw for us to play beyond our warmups prior to a match.
We eventually played our first match against Falhawk and Yankee's team, who liberally employed a tatic of goalie spam and fast breaks to score goals. From what I understand, they were one of the top teams (at the time; argue that idea all you want, because at this point it doesn't matter). After the first match, it seemed like the whole mod was a complete waste of time. What we thought was going to be a game of intricate passes, crossing passes, and slapshots was nothing more than a game of who could cherry pick the fast break and spam the goalie out of the way. Judging on the comments made about the recent mHc and S|B match, it doesn't seem like the game progressed beyond that at all. We finished out the season, with another loss to some random team (because we couldn' get enough players to show), but won the rest.
When you can throw the learning curve of good passing out the window by exploiting it with goalie spam and "fastbreaks" to score goals, then you have a game that doesn't appeal to me.
We got some people together and decided to play in the newly-formed TR2 league. Our players came from Kore and nCn, and CTF on the classic 14 man ladder was our main focus. We would mess around in pubs, trying all sorts of crazy passes and slapshots. We had fun with it, but we didn't spend a lot of time with it. There was no "hook" or "adrenaline rush" that we had commonly associated with Tribes or even T2 classic. We'd pub prior to a match to get warmed up, but there was no real draw for us to play beyond our warmups prior to a match.
We eventually played our first match against Falhawk and Yankee's team, who liberally employed a tatic of goalie spam and fast breaks to score goals. From what I understand, they were one of the top teams (at the time; argue that idea all you want, because at this point it doesn't matter). After the first match, it seemed like the whole mod was a complete waste of time. What we thought was going to be a game of intricate passes, crossing passes, and slapshots was nothing more than a game of who could cherry pick the fast break and spam the goalie out of the way. Judging on the comments made about the recent mHc and S|B match, it doesn't seem like the game progressed beyond that at all. We finished out the season, with another loss to some random team (because we couldn' get enough players to show), but won the rest.
When you can throw the learning curve of good passing out the window by exploiting it with goalie spam and "fastbreaks" to score goals, then you have a game that doesn't appeal to me.
Thrax Panda said:Got a better name? Cause we looked at hundreds and couldn't find one that wasn't either stupid, or taken by something else. I think "TribeSport" was probably the best we came up with other than TR2. My only crutch here is that names are a marketing thing, but I didn't come up with anything worth shit either so TR2 stuck.
you'll see him complaining alot, then bragging in some thread about how he owns the houston vehicles server, and we know what kinda server that is :|
TR2 I thought was fun, just I don't like Tribes 2, I UE wayyy too much...
That + bad pubs make it go sour, if public play isn't any good, competitive play will only keep it going so long
TR2 died for a number of reasons.
To make the analysis tractable, I'll divide it into periods:
Introduction Period: Great fanfare, like 70 teams, Classic and TR2 released nearly simultaneously
Problem 1: For competitive purposes, a league vs. a ladder was employed.
The issue is that a league forces less motivated/skilled teams to play more motivated/skilled teams nearly EVERY match. Most TR2 players were interested in having fun/taking a break from CTF/exploring a new gametype. Thus, when they got hugely owned every week, they lost interest quickly. I have spoke with a number of captains
Problem 2: CTF Classic takes off/CTF has "large installed base" of committed teams
Most people don't have time to play both CTF and TR seriously. As the "ownings" set in, people began to lose interest as well.
Problem 3: The Competitive Community's Serious Attitude (Asshole) Problem
Initially, the hardcore competitive community was significantly less friendly than the CTF community. I'm not fully sure why this is. While internet games are not known for milk and cookies, the behavior of many teams (especially their leaders) was immensely bad. People were dicks about rules, schedules, results, in-game behavior etc.
Problem 4: Brand New Learning Curve, "Elite" CTF players don't want to lose to "inferior" players
TR2 builds on certain elements of CTF and introduces others. Thus, TR2's leading teams were not necessarily made up of leading CTF players. As "elites" got owned (or at least didn't dominate to the same degree) by players whose skills they weren't used to respecting, they quit. More than 1 leader of a top CTF team who played on or led a TR2 team has confessed to me privately that this was a problem.
Result: Mass defections/dissatisfaction
Middle Period: League Dying, Mass Forfeits, Ladder introduced
Problem 1: Typical "Network Effect" associated with a dying network
As people leave a network (ANY network - beta, non-qwerty keyboards whatever), the network quickly loses ground. The suck of getting owned every week, the suck of mass forfeits (some didn't play a match for weeks at a time), the suck of assholish behavior led to general disillusionment and team dissolution.
Problem 2: TR2 DEV team deserts TR2. Thus, significant gameplay/bug issues emerge and go unfixed for a long period of time.
Problem 3: TR2 Ladder/League compete for attention
Scheduling became a nightmare for remaining teams as they tried to play both ladder and league games. This exacerbated the already present "asshole" problem as teams used these conflicts to their advantage. New tensions amongst top teams emerged and some teams quit.
Problem 4: "League vs Ladder getting owned " Problem continues generally
Problem 5: CTF continues to pull people away as Classic picks up speed
Problem 6: Asshole problem in full effect - community gets increasingly hostile/entrenched
Result: Continued community shrinkage
End Period: Small, hard core group of teams left on the ladder
Good thing 1: People work to bury the attitude problem and start working together to save the community. Sadly, the effort, while substantial, comes too late.
Problem 1: Massive disagreements about the degree to which TR2 scoring should emphasize skilled passing versus goal scoring emerge.
Hundreds of passionate forum posts (literally) are made. Community members get disillusioned.
Problem 2: Abandonment of TR2 by its DEV team
A solid DEV team might have been able to make gameplay changes quickly to save the game.
Problem 3: People are uncompromising in their gameplay positions, "My Way or the High Way"
The community can't agree about scoring and won't compromise. Add this to all of the other bad stuff and lots say "fuck it."
Problem 4: CTF player suck continues
Result: The community is decimated and the ladder is killed.
Reasons that don't matter:
1. "War" vs. "Sports" - People who didn't want to play TR2 for this reason probably left after the first few times they played it. I honestly have never heard anybody say they didn't play the game for this reason. This effect probably manifested itself during the first week.
2. Quality of Admins - Both HTS and Yankee did very good jobs. I strongly disagree with the league approach for a new game, but the league was executed administratively as well as it could have been executed. While I think the league should have been resolved quickly (say over a weekend) to make way for the ladder, I understand why HTS was reluctant to kill it off. Much thanks to both HTS and Yankee for their hard work.
3. T2 Engine - Aside from a very small minority of irrational, rabid T1 players/T2 haters, most recognize that the T2 engine is significantly more stable today than at release.
4. Upgrade Problem - If somebody is trying to play Tribes on a 400 mhz machine, they're not going to have fun playing most games available today regardless of the stability of the code.
To make the analysis tractable, I'll divide it into periods:
Introduction Period: Great fanfare, like 70 teams, Classic and TR2 released nearly simultaneously
Problem 1: For competitive purposes, a league vs. a ladder was employed.
The issue is that a league forces less motivated/skilled teams to play more motivated/skilled teams nearly EVERY match. Most TR2 players were interested in having fun/taking a break from CTF/exploring a new gametype. Thus, when they got hugely owned every week, they lost interest quickly. I have spoke with a number of captains
Problem 2: CTF Classic takes off/CTF has "large installed base" of committed teams
Most people don't have time to play both CTF and TR seriously. As the "ownings" set in, people began to lose interest as well.
Problem 3: The Competitive Community's Serious Attitude (Asshole) Problem
Initially, the hardcore competitive community was significantly less friendly than the CTF community. I'm not fully sure why this is. While internet games are not known for milk and cookies, the behavior of many teams (especially their leaders) was immensely bad. People were dicks about rules, schedules, results, in-game behavior etc.
Problem 4: Brand New Learning Curve, "Elite" CTF players don't want to lose to "inferior" players
TR2 builds on certain elements of CTF and introduces others. Thus, TR2's leading teams were not necessarily made up of leading CTF players. As "elites" got owned (or at least didn't dominate to the same degree) by players whose skills they weren't used to respecting, they quit. More than 1 leader of a top CTF team who played on or led a TR2 team has confessed to me privately that this was a problem.
Result: Mass defections/dissatisfaction
Middle Period: League Dying, Mass Forfeits, Ladder introduced
Problem 1: Typical "Network Effect" associated with a dying network
As people leave a network (ANY network - beta, non-qwerty keyboards whatever), the network quickly loses ground. The suck of getting owned every week, the suck of mass forfeits (some didn't play a match for weeks at a time), the suck of assholish behavior led to general disillusionment and team dissolution.
Problem 2: TR2 DEV team deserts TR2. Thus, significant gameplay/bug issues emerge and go unfixed for a long period of time.
Problem 3: TR2 Ladder/League compete for attention
Scheduling became a nightmare for remaining teams as they tried to play both ladder and league games. This exacerbated the already present "asshole" problem as teams used these conflicts to their advantage. New tensions amongst top teams emerged and some teams quit.
Problem 4: "League vs Ladder getting owned " Problem continues generally
Problem 5: CTF continues to pull people away as Classic picks up speed
Problem 6: Asshole problem in full effect - community gets increasingly hostile/entrenched
Result: Continued community shrinkage
End Period: Small, hard core group of teams left on the ladder
Good thing 1: People work to bury the attitude problem and start working together to save the community. Sadly, the effort, while substantial, comes too late.
Problem 1: Massive disagreements about the degree to which TR2 scoring should emphasize skilled passing versus goal scoring emerge.
Hundreds of passionate forum posts (literally) are made. Community members get disillusioned.
Problem 2: Abandonment of TR2 by its DEV team
A solid DEV team might have been able to make gameplay changes quickly to save the game.
Problem 3: People are uncompromising in their gameplay positions, "My Way or the High Way"
The community can't agree about scoring and won't compromise. Add this to all of the other bad stuff and lots say "fuck it."
Problem 4: CTF player suck continues
Result: The community is decimated and the ladder is killed.
Reasons that don't matter:
1. "War" vs. "Sports" - People who didn't want to play TR2 for this reason probably left after the first few times they played it. I honestly have never heard anybody say they didn't play the game for this reason. This effect probably manifested itself during the first week.
2. Quality of Admins - Both HTS and Yankee did very good jobs. I strongly disagree with the league approach for a new game, but the league was executed administratively as well as it could have been executed. While I think the league should have been resolved quickly (say over a weekend) to make way for the ladder, I understand why HTS was reluctant to kill it off. Much thanks to both HTS and Yankee for their hard work.
3. T2 Engine - Aside from a very small minority of irrational, rabid T1 players/T2 haters, most recognize that the T2 engine is significantly more stable today than at release.
4. Upgrade Problem - If somebody is trying to play Tribes on a 400 mhz machine, they're not going to have fun playing most games available today regardless of the stability of the code.
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Implications of the above for Future Team Rabbit Manifestations:
1. Launch TR simultaneously with CTF at T3's release. This will give TR a chance to catch on.
2. Encourage the gaming community to employ a ladder (vs. league) format
3. Provide excellent training to lessen the skill-curve problem
4. Provide ongoing DEV team support to resolve problems as they are identified
1. Launch TR simultaneously with CTF at T3's release. This will give TR a chance to catch on.
2. Encourage the gaming community to employ a ladder (vs. league) format
3. Provide excellent training to lessen the skill-curve problem
4. Provide ongoing DEV team support to resolve problems as they are identified
S
Siron
Guest
Flatscan said:
I agree 100% here. Also, another reason Tr2 failed was because so many people went to CTF and other mods, before some base problems of Tr2 was fixed. Even after GPA and the new grab-creativity system was introduced, I never saw people come back and try Tr2 again. I completely believe that if given another look, many people would find that Tr2 is much more fun than it used to be. People do anything to win, and since it took quite a while for goalie-rape and creativity issues to be resolved, it's unfortunate that Tr2 ended because much of the community left before it's "patches" got a chance to come out.
The main problem for me personally was that the best way to win is not necessarily the most challenging way to play. Possession can be easily retained using conservative strats, you can put 4 or more guys on the goal when the other team cowboys etc. I am not bitching I am just saying this is what drove me away from the game more than anything else. All in all it was some of the best times I've had playing a game. GGs.
Flatscan,
Wow, very well thought out. Thank you for the feedback. KP has also given me some feedback which I've summarized below. To make a game that is appealing to the general public, it's helpful to know what isn't. Here's a quick list. Lots of these are obvious but worth noting:
It's important to recognize that these are general rules, and don't hold for all people or all situations.
Wow, very well thought out. Thank you for the feedback. KP has also given me some feedback which I've summarized below. To make a game that is appealing to the general public, it's helpful to know what isn't. Here's a quick list. Lots of these are obvious but worth noting:
- Auto-assigning roles (offense, defense, goalie) removes player choices
- Removing player choices strangles the longevity of the game
- The extreme alternative, namely having too many player choices, poses a high barrier to entry
- In other words, keep a managed set of equipment choices in the game and let players evolve their own roles
- The sound scheme for bonuses, which was highly experimental, didn't really work
- Overall presentation of the scoring system was too complex
- Scaling and depth perception are critically important, and the inter-relationships between physics and art require a lot of thought and experimentation to figure out
- A true T1-like feel was impossible in T2 without access to source code (partly due to physics, partly due to art)
- The T1 feel is great, but it's not the only way to make a fun feeling game, and it could be improved upon
- In general, for the average player, scoring a goal feels more rewarding than figuring out how style is supposed to work, suggesting that big events like scoring goals should tend to be used to determine team points while more subtle events like style should tend to be used only as a measure of individual performance
- The average player likes the rules behind team scoring to be quite obvious and simple
- Even average players appreciate an assortment of more complex individual stats that can exist alongside basic team points
- The average player needs shooting (weapons) to be a more important part of the game in order to maintain interest and have fun; having to think about positioning and throwing flags is not enough (even though it's enough for some hardcore players)
- Ramps and other sporty-type objects need a lot of thought in terms of design and placement in order to be fun and useful (some of them weren't useful in TR2)
- Lastly (perhaps most obviously), if the developers of a game stop supporting it post-release, the game's popularity is more likely to dwindle, especially if there are still issues with the game that need to be resolved
It's important to recognize that these are general rules, and don't hold for all people or all situations.
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Even tho flatscan and I definitely don't agree on much he pretty much nailed all the reasons.
TR2 is not a fun game at all when you are first starting out (especially when you mix in newbs and vets in a pub, it then becomes a major pain for all parties).
CTF is pretty much fun at any skill level.
I really didn't enjoy tr2 that much when I first tried it but I kept with it only because 4-5 years of ctf had gotten extremely dull. Once I was proficient at tr2 and knew the basics it was as much fun (if not more) than t1/t2 classic ever was to me.
TR2 is not a fun game at all when you are first starting out (especially when you mix in newbs and vets in a pub, it then becomes a major pain for all parties).
CTF is pretty much fun at any skill level.
I really didn't enjoy tr2 that much when I first tried it but I kept with it only because 4-5 years of ctf had gotten extremely dull. Once I was proficient at tr2 and knew the basics it was as much fun (if not more) than t1/t2 classic ever was to me.
black label
Veteran XX
Tr2 was alot of fun and should be in tntg...please thrax make it happen
Golgac said:
thats an interesting point .. but i think it goes back to "What is this game?" The creators had an idea.. but
KP said:The average player likes the rules behind team scoring to be quite obvious and simple
Even average players appreciate an assortment of more complex individual stats that can exist alongside basic team points
The average player needs shooting (weapons) to be a more important part of the game in order to maintain interest and have fun; having to think about positioning and throwing flags is not enough (even though it's enough for some hardcore players)
^^^ thats the problem. IT isnt simple. CTF whether your a Vet or a newb you know the real objective is to get the enemy flag back to your own (some newbs you question if they know it, but still). In TR2 its hard to tell... should i pass it some more ? should i score? (and in pubs you could get kicked for not playin how the admin though the game should be played). Which goes back to golgac said. The people that originally had the idea werent around to give any direction as to what the real purpose of the game was.
Therefore TR2 was confused. It seemed to be 2 different games. Keepaway -passing where "cool points" were giving for different throw catches; and at the same time tring to be a sport game ...(OR WAS IT trying to be a sport game? this just occurred to me). Maybe the goals (or NEXUS) was just there to collect your points (for fear of losing the pot you built), like on WEAKEST LINK... scoring was just like "banking" and it wasnt suppose to be 'sport-like' at all??????? but who knows there was no manual, no demo that said this is how it's suppose to be played.. there was just the game.. and players had to decide .. which of course we (the community) split on.. Where it seems most of the ppl that stayed w/ it preferred the keepaway/passing game.. and most that left wanted the sport game.
in sumation
I would like to re-iterate the newb/learning curve problem. It's just too hard for a newb to join a pub full of vets and make a difference. At least in CTF as a newb you can run around with a repair pack and fix stuff and still have fun. Without newbs comes extinction. Sooner or later the vets retire and nobody is there to replace them.
If the game were more appealing to newbs, we would have a larger player base, more teams on the ladder which would make it more appealing for top teams to stay (rather than dropping becuase they didn't like the way the team that beat them played).
How can we make it more newb friendly? Maybe a good traing mode would help.
If the game were more appealing to newbs, we would have a larger player base, more teams on the ladder which would make it more appealing for top teams to stay (rather than dropping becuase they didn't like the way the team that beat them played).
How can we make it more newb friendly? Maybe a good traing mode would help.
Thrax - Thanks for the post and for paying attention . Given your experience as a player and KP's involvement, I feel very good about the prospects for T3.
KP is a hugely bright guy (based on TR2 and previous TW posts I've read) and he makes a lot of good points that I agree with to varying degrees.
Here are my thoughts on a few key points (only in reference to TR):
* The sound scheme for bonuses, which was highly experimental, didn't really work
While I think the sounds could be nuanced, there is a lot of good stuff to build on here. A significant number of people have told me that they fell in love with the sounds. I know that I did. I still enjoy the sounds despite having played the mod since release.
I would suggest making an "on/off" toggle for those that don't like the sounds or for those with low-end computer systems.
*Overall presentation of the scoring system was too complex
This is true. As released it was VERY difficult to understand "why you were getting what bonus when."
The good news is this problem is easily fixed.
Silverspirit's "Graphic Equalizer Hud" made the scoring matrix very intuitive (guess who thought of it muahahahaha hee, /me si egomaniac =P.). Kinchyle's server-side "Creativity Hud" made creativity easy to keep track of. I would build these sort of huds into TR3. Also, a good description of how scoring works in the manual would go a long way towards helping people get started. Lastly, I would provide links to "readmes" during map-load screens. These would let players get real-time answers to their questions.
* In general, for the average player, scoring a goal feels more rewarding than figuring out how style is supposed to work, suggesting that big events like scoring goals should tend to be used to determine team points while more subtle events like style should tend to be used only as a measure of individual performance
The success of CTF/DM across games certainly supports this position.
I'm not sure that this is necessarily true, however.
The key issue in my mind is making sure that players can keep track of how scoring works. Well-designed huds go a long way in this regard.
I've argued fervently for the last 3 months or so that TR should reward 3 things in a balanced fashion: goals, creativity and consecutive high-point passes. With good huds, I think this is manageable from a complexity standpoint.
* The average player likes the rules behind team scoring to be quite obvious and simple
Agreed - again huds can make an elegant scoring system intelligable.
* Even average players appreciate an assortment of more complex individual stats that can exist alongside basic team points
Hugely agree - games with long learning curves endure.
* The average player needs shooting (weapons) to be a more important part of the game in order to maintain interest and have fun; having to think about positioning and throwing flags is not enough (even though it's enough for some hardcore players)
From a marketing perspective, there is no "average" player.
Tribes has always been about much more than killing. I think T3 will fail if it only tries to "out FPS" games like Unreal, Doom or Quake. I'm personally bored by these games yet I've played Tribes for 5 years.
TR strikes a nice balance between fighting/other stuff. While I can't offer any data to support this point, my intuition is that there is a meaningful niche of players whose imaginations could be captured by a very well-done/well-marketed TR3 included at initial release. These players may be slightly different from the traditional buyer of a Tribes product and thus may require a slightly different marketing approach. I don't think these players are so different as to require the mod's release as a different game.
I'm confident the Weasel can figure out how to handle this without help from me =).
* Ramps and other sporty-type objects need a lot of thought in terms of design and placement in order to be fun and useful (some of them weren't useful in TR2)
I loved the ramps, cannons, grids, bowls and bouncy pads. Treasure Island and God's Rift remain my favorite maps. I would love to see TR3 push this even further (think mix of T1 Extreme Skiing and a skate park). Loops would be awesome. To make this concept work, the maps would have to be comperably massive and hugely vertical and horizontal in terms of play. Massive maps would feel "right sized," however, given their increased speed.
Maps like this could be especially cool if integrated with some of the ideas described in the "Tribes movement thread" that Nat started.
. Given your experience as a player and KP's involvement, I feel very good about the prospects for T3. KP is a hugely bright guy (based on TR2 and previous TW posts I've read) and he makes a lot of good points that I agree with to varying degrees.
Here are my thoughts on a few key points (only in reference to TR):
* The sound scheme for bonuses, which was highly experimental, didn't really work
While I think the sounds could be nuanced, there is a lot of good stuff to build on here. A significant number of people have told me that they fell in love with the sounds. I know that I did. I still enjoy the sounds despite having played the mod since release.
I would suggest making an "on/off" toggle for those that don't like the sounds or for those with low-end computer systems.
*Overall presentation of the scoring system was too complex
This is true. As released it was VERY difficult to understand "why you were getting what bonus when."
The good news is this problem is easily fixed.
Silverspirit's "Graphic Equalizer Hud" made the scoring matrix very intuitive (guess who thought of it muahahahaha hee, /me si egomaniac =P.). Kinchyle's server-side "Creativity Hud" made creativity easy to keep track of. I would build these sort of huds into TR3. Also, a good description of how scoring works in the manual would go a long way towards helping people get started. Lastly, I would provide links to "readmes" during map-load screens. These would let players get real-time answers to their questions.
* In general, for the average player, scoring a goal feels more rewarding than figuring out how style is supposed to work, suggesting that big events like scoring goals should tend to be used to determine team points while more subtle events like style should tend to be used only as a measure of individual performance
The success of CTF/DM across games certainly supports this position.
I'm not sure that this is necessarily true, however.
The key issue in my mind is making sure that players can keep track of how scoring works. Well-designed huds go a long way in this regard.
I've argued fervently for the last 3 months or so that TR should reward 3 things in a balanced fashion: goals, creativity and consecutive high-point passes. With good huds, I think this is manageable from a complexity standpoint.
* The average player likes the rules behind team scoring to be quite obvious and simple
Agreed - again huds can make an elegant scoring system intelligable.
* Even average players appreciate an assortment of more complex individual stats that can exist alongside basic team points
Hugely agree - games with long learning curves endure.
* The average player needs shooting (weapons) to be a more important part of the game in order to maintain interest and have fun; having to think about positioning and throwing flags is not enough (even though it's enough for some hardcore players)
From a marketing perspective, there is no "average" player.
Tribes has always been about much more than killing. I think T3 will fail if it only tries to "out FPS" games like Unreal, Doom or Quake. I'm personally bored by these games yet I've played Tribes for 5 years.
TR strikes a nice balance between fighting/other stuff. While I can't offer any data to support this point, my intuition is that there is a meaningful niche of players whose imaginations could be captured by a very well-done/well-marketed TR3 included at initial release. These players may be slightly different from the traditional buyer of a Tribes product and thus may require a slightly different marketing approach. I don't think these players are so different as to require the mod's release as a different game.
I'm confident the Weasel can figure out how to handle this without help from me =).
* Ramps and other sporty-type objects need a lot of thought in terms of design and placement in order to be fun and useful (some of them weren't useful in TR2)
I loved the ramps, cannons, grids, bowls and bouncy pads. Treasure Island and God's Rift remain my favorite maps. I would love to see TR3 push this even further (think mix of T1 Extreme Skiing and a skate park). Loops would be awesome. To make this concept work, the maps would have to be comperably massive and hugely vertical and horizontal in terms of play. Massive maps would feel "right sized," however, given their increased speed.
Maps like this could be especially cool if integrated with some of the ideas described in the "Tribes movement thread" that Nat started.
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We already have (except it came out as a Tony Hawk 3 meets Quake)Flatscan said:
For me, it was creativity that killed it. Most players I know don't want to sit there passing and thinking, "Ok, now if I pass and get this many points then we pass and get this many more, and then pass to get this variance, we'll get 25 points!"
If the main goal of a game that at least tries to model itself somewhat as a sport isn't in scoring goals/baskets/touchdowns/whatever, then I don't think it has much chance. IMO, creativity and all that jazz should have supplemented goals, not taken their place. Teams learned to exploit the system, and while that happens in most games, it brought the tactics and strats in TR2 to a fairly one-dimensional stage. Not all teams used the creativity/possession/don't take chances position, but it's not like we had 100 teams to choose from to play.
I think passing should have been the means to scoring goals, which should be the ultimate goal. As it stood you could win matches while being outscored goal-wise. I know this was a huge TR2 community conflict, and we'd all have to admit it played a large role in the ladder's final demise. Once I saw things weren't going to change, I decided to stop. I played T2 CTF for a year or so, hating it every day, and I won't do that again.
And like others said, TR2 didn't seem to have a real identity. It was like a 'jack of all trades, master of none.'
If the main goal of a game that at least tries to model itself somewhat as a sport isn't in scoring goals/baskets/touchdowns/whatever, then I don't think it has much chance. IMO, creativity and all that jazz should have supplemented goals, not taken their place. Teams learned to exploit the system, and while that happens in most games, it brought the tactics and strats in TR2 to a fairly one-dimensional stage. Not all teams used the creativity/possession/don't take chances position, but it's not like we had 100 teams to choose from to play.
I think passing should have been the means to scoring goals, which should be the ultimate goal. As it stood you could win matches while being outscored goal-wise. I know this was a huge TR2 community conflict, and we'd all have to admit it played a large role in the ladder's final demise. Once I saw things weren't going to change, I decided to stop. I played T2 CTF for a year or so, hating it every day, and I won't do that again.
And like others said, TR2 didn't seem to have a real identity. It was like a 'jack of all trades, master of none.'