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Data
VeteranXV
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161 - 01-10-2010, 20:02
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Yeah, where are we at on this, Goshin?
 
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Goshin
VeteranXV
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162 - 01-11-2010, 10:17
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holding pattern
like i've stated a bunch, we'll know if the project worked or not in 2 years. If the navy experiement leads to a positive result, then we'll see a lot more money pour into building the proving reactor, which would be a fullscale mockup. Once that was built and online, it's a proven technology and the navy retrofits all its vessels and we get fusion by 2020 powering the country (more or less)

i'll see if i can dig up any more information though
 
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163 - 01-11-2010, 11:00
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think this may be a newer polywell fusion reactor in testing

maybe
 
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164 - 01-11-2010, 11:02
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and, a recap on what the navy is doing:

Quote:
The boys at Talk Polywell have uncovered the details of the WB-8 contract [pdf]. Those details can give us some insight into how WB-7 has gone. From the looks of things - rather well.

The current effort will build on what has been completed under these previous contracts as well as requirements to provide the Navy with data for potential applications of AGEE with a delivered item, wiffleball 8 (WB8) and options for a modified wiffleball 8 (WB8.1) and modified ion gun. The objective of this procurement is validation of the basic physics of the AGEE concept as well as requirements to provide the Navy with data for potential applications of AGEE. It builds upon previous concept-demonstration bench top versions of plasma wiffleballs. As such, it comes under the FAR 35.001 definition of applied research. The contract will be for a wiffleball 8 with 2 options for modifications to the wiffleball based upon it's success.
OK. They are going into deeper validation. Which means WB-7 went OK.
3.1.1 The Contractor shall construct and test a small-scale MG Insulated, Wiffleball Polyhedral Device, WB8. WB8 shall be built based on results of WB7 (built under contract N68936-03-C-0031) and shall utilize design and performance knowledge gained from test of prior WB machines.

3.1.2 The design shall use circular coils around each main face cusp axis. The device shall use emitter electron gun arrays and an ion beam drive. The machine will be operated in magnetic fields with pulsed currents. WB8 shall be operated at a magnetic field strength of approximately 0.8 Tesla, which represents an increase of 8 times the magnetic field strength of previous WB machines. Improvements over previous WB machines in WB confinement, ion energy and fusion reactivity are expected as a result of these changes to WB machine design.

3.1.3 Within 20 days of completion of testing of the WB8, the contractor shall deliver a report detailing the results of the experimental testing of this MG Insulated, Wiffleball Polyhedral Device, WB8. The report shall provide sufficient information to guide programmatic and design decisions about further, refined design efforts for similar devices. The report shall address the plasma dynamics of WB devices, and shall address the scaling laws that apply to polywell fusion. (A001)

Circular coils means that there will be no significant change in geometry. That is good. Apples to apples comparisons. An increase of field strength by a factor of 8 means - if the scaling laws hold a factor of about 4,000 increase in power out. If WB-7 was similar to WB-6 it means an increase from 3 neutrons a shot to 12,000. A real countable number i.e the error bars will be much lower. A count of 3 can actually be considered a count of 3 +/-2. That is a big error bar. For 12,000 the error bar is on the order of +/-100 about 1%. That makes improvements or degradations of 5% easily detectable. Where as in the first situation (WB-6/7) changes that doubled or halved the output rate would be hard to detect.
3.1.4 Within 30 days of build and test of WB8, the contractor shall provide a predictive model of WB behavior including data points for detailed 2D/3D profile measurements of plasma density, ion energy and WB magnetic field structure during follow-on tests to validate the scientific basis for a Polywell fusion power reactor, and guide further research. The contractor shall coordinate with the Government for a program review meeting at the contractor's facilities to be held no later than 40 days after the testing of the WB8 and shall provide the detailed predictive model and data points at this program review meeting.

3.1.5 The contractor shall deliver a periodic progress report specifying status information of the experimental testing of the MG Insulated, Wiffleball Polyhedral Device, WB8. (A002)

The magnetic profile of an operating device is critical for knowing how the device actually operates. Without that it is very difficult if not impossible to design in improvements.
3.1.6 The contractor shall deliver a conceptual design for a follow-on fusion demonstration device, WB-9. Conceptual studies will focus on the feasibility of extending the WB-8 results to this device and determining the suitability of this concept as a fusion reactor. This design will be delivered at the end of the contract.
So the program is starting to take on a life of its own. A WB-9 device is already under consideration even before experiments on WB-8 are even completed. This indicates a fair amount of confidence in the forthcoming results. Excellent.

Now here comes what I consider the most critical requirement of WB-8testing.

3.2.1 Enhanced Ion Drive with PB11 (proton/boron 11): Based on the results of WB8 testing, and the availability of government funds the contractor shall develop a WB machine (WB8.1) which incorporates the knowledge and improvements gained in WB8. It is expected that higher ion drive capabilities will be added, and that a "PB11" reaction will be demonstrated. The contractor shall investigate and validate the plasma scaling laws with respect to B-field, voltage and reactor size. The contractor shall investigate the feasibility of a neutron-free fusion power reaction using a polywell WB machine. It is anticipated that improvements in WB confinement, ion energy, and fusion reactivity will be demonstrated in WB8.1. Improvements over the WB8 predictive, computational model are expected, which should yield a better understanding of the WB fusion reaction thus allowing optimization of the WB machine.

3.2.2 The contractor shall deliver a report detailing the results of the experimental testing of WB8.1. The report shall provide sufficient information to guide programmatic and design decisions about further, refined design efforts for similar devices. The report shall address the plasma dynamics of WB devices, and shall address the scaling laws that apply to polywell fusion, and the feasibility of the PB11 reaction. The report shall address the conceptual requirements for a polywell fusion reactor capable of generating approximately 100mW. (A0001)

3.2.3 Within 30 days of testing, the contractor shall update the predictive computer model of WB behavior created under paragraph 3.1.4 using the PB11 reaction and shall deliver the model within 30 days of completion of initial tests specified in paragraph 3.2.1.

The fact that they are contemplating work on the pB11 reaction is very encouraging. That fuel is one of the most difficult to burn in a fusion reactor. Which means testing with lesser fuels (or simulated fuels) has gone very well indeed.

At 100 milliwatts for a follow on reactor they are starting to get into the power range. If they can get that kind of power with .3 m dia. coils and .8 T fields, then a reactor with 3 m coils and 10 T fields should produce about 2.5 Mega Watts if the scaling laws hold.

And just as a little kicker:

3.3.1 The contractor shall develop an enhanced ion drive system that is compatible with Wiffleball 8.1 and projected future wiffleballs. The ion drive system shall be capable of injecting protons (ionized Hydrogen), and ionized Boron 11. The ion drive system shall be capable of generating ions in sufficient quantity to fully fuel the wiffleball fusion machines.
If they are going to fuel even a small machine the ion guns are going to have to be capable of multi amp currents - each.

Well that is my first cut at digesting the news. If you want to figure out more a look at all the links at Talk Polywell will be helpful. I especially liked this inventory [pdf] of items purchased since about 1999.

All in all the new contract has a lot of good news. To sum up:

What it means about past work: it went well.
What it means for the future: verifying engineering rules
More: there is a plan to test the Hydrogen/Boron 11 fuel combination
More: They must be confident of results since they are planning a WB-9
from Classical Values :: The Boys At Talk-Polywell Have Struck Paydirt
 
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Odio
VeteranX
Old
165 - 01-18-2010, 12:59
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I was going to bump this, but it has already been bumped.
 
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Goshin
VeteranXV
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166 - 01-18-2010, 13:12
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what were you going to bump with?
 
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Goshin
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167 - 01-29-2010, 08:36
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[Laser] Scientists Produce Unprecedented 1 Megajoule Laser Shot, Step Towards Fusion by ICFire - TribalWar Forums

BBC News - Laser fusion test results raise energy hopes
apparently some laser just went off and did cool stuff
Quote:
Crucially, the recent experiments provided proof that the plasma did not reduce the hohlraum's ability to absorb the incident laser light; it absorbed about 95%.

But more than that, Dr Glenzer's team discovered that the plasma can actually be carefully manipulated to increase the uniformity of the compression.


The 130-tonne target chamber is kept under vacuum for the experiments
"For the first time ever in the 50-year journey of laser fusion, these laser-plasma interactions have been shown to be less of a problem than predicted, not more," said Mike Dunne, director of the UK's Central Laser Facility and leader of the European laser fusion effort known as HiPER.

"I can't overstate how dramatic a step that is," he told BBC News. "Many people a year ago were saying the project would be dead by now."
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Giant laser experiment powers up
background on the experiment

Quote:
Fusion naturally occurs at the centre of stars where huge gravitational pressure allows the process to happen at temperatures of about 10 million Celsius.

At the much lower pressures on Earth, temperatures to produce fusion need to be much higher - above 100 million Celsius.

NIF will focus on a process known as inertially confined fusion, in which these extreme temperatures are achieved using ultra powerful lasers.
Quote:
Although NIF is only at the beginning of its experimental life, scientists are already planning its successor, a European project known as Hiper (High Power Laser Energy Research).

"The technology of NIF allows the laser to fire every few hours," explained Professor Dunne, director of Hiper.

"This is right for the demonstration of the physics 'proof of principle', but does not meet the requirement of a laser fusion power plant, which needs to operate a few times per second."

Hiper aims to lay the foundations of this continuous fusion cycle by showing it can ignite a steady stream of fuel pellets.

all goes well, engineers will begin to build the Hiper facility towards the end of the next decade, bringing the vision of a commercial fusion reactor one step closer to reality.

At approximately the same time, scientists will also get their hands on another mammoth fusion experiment, the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (Iter), currently being built in Cadarache, France.

Iter will attempt to initiate fusion using a different method, known as magnetic confinement, in which a super-heated volume of gas is constrained by magnetic fields in a doughnut-shaped vessel known as a tokamak.
both laser and tokamak fusion are different from what was earlier gone over in this thread

exiting development though! I just don't know enough about it to offer much any other insight
 
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Mabelrode
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Old
168 - 01-29-2010, 08:46
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pretty rad
 
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Mr Rabies
VeteranXV
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169 - 01-29-2010, 09:11
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where the minovsky particles at
 
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Benzer
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170 - 01-29-2010, 09:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
found it
I am not enough of a physicst to judge whether or not this thing will work technically, but I think the problem is that it won't work financially, $2e8 is just too much money for someone to put up for a risky venture like this (yes, even Serge Brin and Larry Page, they have their financial guys to take care of their portfolio and this kind of thing is way off the curve w.r.t. risk v.s. amount invested for such financial guys).
Duh, the $200 Million is for the construction of the sentient robot arms that will have to be built to control the reaction.
 
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FngrBANG
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Old
171 - 01-29-2010, 20:19
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fusion power is a myth
 
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-=TTC=-Serpreme
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172 - 01-29-2010, 20:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FngrBANG View Post
fusion power is a myth
/me looks at the sun

my god, you religious people are so blind.
 
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FngrBANG
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173 - 01-29-2010, 21:01
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You aren't a stellar mass. You are just a homo.

Go build a Dyson sphere & then get back to me.

Otherwise, STFU
 
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-=TTC=-Serpreme
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Old
174 - 01-29-2010, 21:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FngrBANG View Post
You aren't a stellar mass. You are just a homo.

Go build a Dyson sphere & then get back to me.

Otherwise, STFU
i'm more confused then angry?
 
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FngrBANG
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175 - 01-29-2010, 21:49
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that must explain why you chose to make a statement and then closed with a question mark.

f*ckin' douche
 
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FngrBANG
VeteranX
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176 - 01-29-2010, 22:01
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BTW, "THAN"
 
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Data
VeteranXV
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177 - 01-29-2010, 22:03
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You're a huge ****ing hypocrite, Fngr.

 
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Togowack
VeteranX
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178 - 01-29-2010, 22:06
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Hey Goshin man, you need more experience posting.

There is NO way you will get through to people with walls of text, your ability to summarize should baby feed the American public in at most 2 bite sized paragraphs of quotation, plus 1 of your own, and 2-3 links tops.

anything more than this is retardation unless the public has been sufficiently trained to take it in. You have to realize there is a 20-30 second attention span for principle topic.
 
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FngrBANG
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179 - 01-29-2010, 22:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Data View Post
You're a huge ****ing hypocrite, Fngr.

And you're just picture-f*cking-perfect, aren't you?
 
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Data
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180 - 01-29-2010, 22:09
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Yeah, pretty much.



Trying not to rub it in though.
 
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