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Rayn
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Old
61 - 08-27-2008, 17:41
so how is the shadow warrior
 
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Shadow13
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Old
62 - 08-27-2008, 17:49
Quote:
Originally Posted by DacTheHork View Post
Yeah a majority of tanks will go 2 hander. At the same time shield has decent abilities like +50% block while channeling at only 15 ap a sec, and +10% block tactic etc. There will be a reason to go them, overall though 2 h damager seems the way to go overall. Since even though they say tanks will actually tank no one on their right mind is gonna kill a shield wielding tank first unless there are no other targets in range. Also save the runts works with 2h.

also mitigation != shield since it is blocks not mitigation.
a lot of shields have mitigation based stats on them btw (AC). But I should have said "defensive difference". to be more clear that I meant the whole picture.

I am not trying to sound like a snob, but some of you guys (not you dac) who are pro shield sound like you have never even tried to play any other style to see really how it works instead you are basing your input on what you "think" it should work like.

Ive been in beta for a while, since the beginning of the year, and have run every single instance that I know is available to Destruction and elder servers. I have ALWAYS tanked with a 2hander and have yet to meet an instance we couldn't complete with ease using 2 2handed BO's, a dok, 2 shamans and a marauder.

The King instance is the only instance where I would say it would benefit from having a shield tank, but even then the little bit of shield defenses you get aren't going to matter when you get hit for 10k. I am not saying shield doesn't have its place, it has nice skills and morals for all tanks who use one black orcs included, but people need to get out of the mindset that you can only do one thing with these classes.

I urge you guys who only use a shield to pick up a nice RR or PQ 2hander and stick with it and use your shield when you really really need it because like I was the first time I played my Chosen when they released Chaos / Order tier 3 with a 2hander you will be surprised at how much damage you do, and how much defense you still have.
 
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Shadow13
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Old
63 - 08-27-2008, 17:54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayn View Post
so how is the shadow warrior
I can only comment a bit as someone who played them for about 5 hours with a level 31 template in RvR. I did not PvE nor did I level it.

I tried Skirmish spec (Mid range, couple skills can be used on the move so its a kite template):

using more damage with in 45ft tactic
20% chance to crit but 20ft shorter range tactic
and 20% chance on crit to increase crit % yet 10% chance to be critted increase.

This spec is nice damage, as long as you have a pocket healer because you have to be close as hell to do decent damage.

Assault (Melee):

This spec does pretty damn nice damage but you are a freaking paper tank. My opinion is since your stuck in light armor they should give Assault dual wield and give them a dps increase since you are a marauder with less dps, and less armor.

With that said, you still do considerable damage.

Scout (Long range):

Very nice damage. Decent skills.

All in all? I would rather play my Bright Wizard personally. I do a ****ton more damage, I live about the same amount of time (Difference of maybe 2-3 hits) but for people who hate "casters", like bow users and the look of the SW they are very capable at what they do.
 
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Shadow13
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Old
64 - 08-27-2008, 17:57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangle-Me-Elmo View Post
also, see how well you're still holding up later against heal debuffs

yes, you can be a tank with a 2h, but you're not really tanking

you're dps

I guess it boils down to how good your healers are. If you are roaming solo in zerg on zerg yea I would prolly say don't use a 2hander. But if you 6man, there is no reason on the pvp battlefield to use a shield.
 
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FalseMyrmidon
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Old
65 - 08-27-2008, 17:59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow13 View Post
I guess it boils down to how good your healers are. If you are roaming solo in zerg on zerg yea I would prolly say don't use a 2hander. But if you 6man, there is no reason on the pvp battlefield to use a shield.
If you've got a 75% healing debuff on you it doesn't matter how good your healers are, you're going to be damn near impossible to keep up.
 
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Shadow13
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Old
66 - 08-27-2008, 18:01
Quote:
Originally Posted by FalseMyrmidon View Post
If you've got a 75% healing debuff on you it doesn't matter how good your healers are, you're going to be damn near impossible to keep up.
again, in zerg on zerg this is a problem. In 6 man it isn't. In the 7-8 months that Ive been in beta I have focused 99% of my time on 2 classes Shaman and Black Orc.

The way you guys are trying to make it sound, just isn't the way it is unless you are getting primaried by 25 people in zerg. For real pvp'ers who roam in 6 mans taking objectives and not standing at warcamps playing wakamole the heal debuffs rarely matter on a tank because 99% of the time you are the LAST person to be targetted in a fight.

Edit: Not to mention remove hex removes the healing debuff on you.
 
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Last edited by Shadow13; 08-27-2008 at 18:08..
linkx2251
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Old
67 - 08-27-2008, 18:22
gonna pick this up. recommend me a class, TW.

in wow i played a elemental shaman and got gladiator with it. i loved it: i loved being able to do great damage, great burst, and also be able to heal when needed. the only part i didnt like was the no CC.

also played warlcok to gladiator and loved it too for same reasons. sorta.

what do you guys reccomend?
 
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Jamezeo
VeteranXV
Old
68 - 08-27-2008, 18:30
well when i defend shield+1h I'm not concerned with PVE/dungeons..just pvp and how long you can stay alive

I'm no theorycrafter, but it seemed like people with shields do just fine in PVP. Don't see the advantage of a 2h when you're supposed to be mitigating your realms damage by taunting and using your debuffs, not doing damage anyways.

I can picture 90% of Chosen going with a 2hander and thinking they are a dps class though.
 
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Shadow13
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Old
69 - 08-27-2008, 18:40
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkx2251 View Post
gonna pick this up. recommend me a class, TW.

in wow i played a elemental shaman and got gladiator with it. i loved it: i loved being able to do great damage, great burst, and also be able to heal when needed. the only part i didnt like was the no CC.

also played warlcok to gladiator and loved it too for same reasons. sorta.

what do you guys reccomend?
if you want a mix of good dps and healing I would go Disciple of Khaine. The things to remember though are that you are a melee healer, meaning your biggest heals come from damage you do on melee strikes.

That being said, a well played dok will dominate 2-3 players. But dok's can be very situational. You will not make a very effective "backup" healer just sitting in the back and trying to use group heals and hots. It can be done, but your more effective healing comes off damage. If a dok is in the hands of a ****ty player, its hands down the worst class in game.

The other choice really is a shaman, but I wouldn't spec dps at all to be honest. Unless something has changed in the last phase (3.3) the dps gains you get leaving your healing tree behind are not substantial enough to forget about your healing tree. If you must have a mix of healing and dps and are going destro these are your only two real options.

The thing about both these classes is, your healing will get better doing damage. With the dok as I said its because of the built in off damage heal, and with the shaman its because of the waagh system which builds either effectiveness of your HoT's, or reduces cast times on your bigger heals and group heals based on how many "damage" spells you use (Max of 5). Also, for the Shaman, Waaagh works in reverse for damage, the more healing you do the more effective your dots become, and reduction on your cast times for longer drawtime skills is substantial. (In a lot of cases half or better)
 
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Shadow13
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Old
70 - 08-27-2008, 18:45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamezeo View Post
well when i defend shield+1h I'm not concerned with PVE/dungeons..just pvp and how long you can stay alive

I'm no theorycrafter, but it seemed like people with shields do just fine in PVP. Don't see the advantage of a 2h when you're supposed to be mitigating your realms damage by taunting and using your debuffs, not doing damage anyways.

I can picture 90% of Chosen going with a 2hander and thinking they are a dps class though.
I feel like a broken record. First I gotta ask how long did you play beta? What roles did you pvp in? Did you run primary 6 mans, or did you follow the herd going back and forth between warcamps?

Anyone who ran primary 6mans will tell you that a shield is worthless. Why? Because when you are detaunted with a shield you will be doing 15 damage to your target. Any smart group you fight against isn't going to primary your "tank" first they are going to primary your healers, then your high dps, then melee dps, then your tanks.

What does this mean? It means you are running around with subpar damage, holding a shield so you can block damage that is never hitting you because they aren't focusing on you. Sure, if all your healers die, all your dps is dead then you get targetted you will live a few seconds longer with a shield.. but so what? you aren't going to take anyone down if the rest of your group is dead anyways.

Instead you have a two hander, which will increase your dps because thats what the name of the game is about. Who can outburst damage the other teams healers. Whoever drops the other groups healers first is going to win, smart groups don't focus the tank at the start of the fight. They are the LAST person to go down because they do the least amount of damage on the field.
 
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Falhawk
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Old
71 - 08-27-2008, 20:28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow13 View Post
I feel like a broken record. First I gotta ask how long did you play beta? What roles did you pvp in? Did you run primary 6 mans, or did you follow the herd going back and forth between warcamps?

Anyone who ran primary 6mans will tell you that a shield is worthless. Why? Because when you are detaunted with a shield you will be doing 15 damage to your target. Any smart group you fight against isn't going to primary your "tank" first they are going to primary your healers, then your high dps, then melee dps, then your tanks.

What does this mean? It means you are running around with subpar damage, holding a shield so you can block damage that is never hitting you because they aren't focusing on you. Sure, if all your healers die, all your dps is dead then you get targetted you will live a few seconds longer with a shield.. but so what? you aren't going to take anyone down if the rest of your group is dead anyways.

Instead you have a two hander, which will increase your dps because thats what the name of the game is about. Who can outburst damage the other teams healers. Whoever drops the other groups healers first is going to win, smart groups don't focus the tank at the start of the fight. They are the LAST person to go down because they do the least amount of damage on the field.

this
 
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DacTheHork
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Old
72 - 08-27-2008, 23:54
I don't see 6 man teams being the norm come release. Just too few people. I would rather run in a WB and forget the 6 man limitation (especially with UI addons that make WB screen better) and run whatever is a decent but organized size.

Tanks are ridiculous though if played right I think.

Challenge (30% damage debuff to 3 targets for 15 seconds or until they hit you 3 times), Save da runt - take 1/2 damage, and ya missed me (20% melee debuff), and if you have a shield - hold the line (not really that great only 15% ranged damage reduction).

But if you have 3-4 melee train on your healer a simple save the runt -> Challenge and then meleeing them with will be very effective. Your guarded target will take 35% damage from 3 of them and 50% from the rest. If blocking works on the incoming damage it could be helpful in longer fights (you won't require as much healing), otherwise I would probably just go 2 hander and if with the backline DPS their weakest armored target.

I haven't really seen too many backline tanks though.
 
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Last edited by DacTheHork; 08-28-2008 at 00:00..
greydog
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Old
73 - 08-27-2008, 23:58
^^^ sounds exactly like old daoc emain days. gank the healers, then the cloths, leave the stupid guy in plate running around with a kite shield last.
 
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Oxyminoan
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Old
74 - 08-28-2008, 00:18
I think as people level up and get their heads out of their asses and see the potential of shielded, defensively specced tanks...you'll see more of them. I still think there needs to be more reason to carry a shield...however, the survivability allows your healer to focus on himself and your group, instead of his "bodyguard". I'd much rather the guarded target receive the defensive bonuses of the tank for the damage he takes, as well....but I don't think that'll ever happen.

A Chosen at level 40 with this build has:

Challenge - Abilities - WARDB
Guard - Abilities - Guard WARDB
Repel - Abilities - WARDB on a 10 second timer
Dizzying Blow - Abilities - WARDB
Corrupting Horror - Abilities - WARDB
Downfall - Abilities - WARDB
Quake - Abilities - WARDB
and a very underrated talent called Tainted Wound - Abilities - WARDB

Now...tell me that a well played backline tank with this build would have trouble protecting his healers from a melee train?

I've seen some interesting manipulation of the CD on the Elder servers by all players. Hell, I bodyblock people with my damn Shaman to protect other healers all the time. I see this getting a buff for tanks in the future as well.

Guard damage is split between the tank and his target. However the tank retains his defensive skills, such as block and parry for his side of the damage...so shields are still very viable for guard tanks. It should be noted, however, that all of the skills listed above are usable without a shield. I could easily see a lot of 2-hander defensively specced tanks out there.

People need to start thinking outside the normal things they've come to expect from MMO pvp.

Adapt or die, mother****ers.

P.S. Ironbreakers are ****ing overrated. Chosen are, by far and away, the most complete tank class in the game.
 
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Last edited by Oxyminoan; 08-28-2008 at 00:31..
DacTheHork
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Old
75 - 08-28-2008, 00:19
Quote:
Originally Posted by greydog View Post
^^^ sounds exactly like old daoc emain days. gank the healers, then the cloths, leave the stupid guy in plate running around with a kite shield last.
except he can throw up guard on a target and take 1/2 of all incoming damage (basically forcing 1/2 of all your attacks to hit him). Also he can throw up challenge which will lower your damage a straight 30% for 15 sec until you hit him 3 times (this can affect up to three targets). They also have knockdowns/debuffs etc which will help out a bit and can do decent DPS. Tanks will not be a joke but the advantage of going shield isn't proven yet. It might be if going shield and having the 25%+ block rate allows you to go more str/damage overall or really helps when using guard.

Damage mitigation like that will be huge, especially if the target also uses detaunt etc.
 
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Last edited by DacTheHork; 08-28-2008 at 00:21..
Oxyminoan
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Old
76 - 08-28-2008, 00:27
The AoE detaunts that the "DPS caster/healers" get, such as Stop hittin' me! - Abilities - WARDB and the fact that ALL of their heals are in the same spec line, make them the ideal healers, IMO. Especially on destruction with the broken mechanics and general weakness of the Zealot.
 
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Last edited by Oxyminoan; 08-28-2008 at 00:29..
Jamezeo
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Old
77 - 08-28-2008, 01:23
Shadow, calm yo beard.

Never said i was the holy grail of WAR knowledge. I look to this thread for info, if anything.

Guess i just wish Shield+1H *was* more viable than 2h. Something about a tank not using a shield leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I guess I'm just oldschool.

So is 2hander pretty much the way to go for every tank class?
 
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Yawnfest
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Old
78 - 08-28-2008, 05:00
Are there RvR great weapons for tanks? B/c in the preview it seemed like there weren't any. Or at least they were mis-listed as 1Handers.
 
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Shadow13
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Old
79 - 08-28-2008, 05:09
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamezeo View Post
Shadow, calm yo beard.

Never said i was the holy grail of WAR knowledge. I look to this thread for info, if anything.

Guess i just wish Shield+1H *was* more viable than 2h. Something about a tank not using a shield leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I guess I'm just oldschool.

So is 2hander pretty much the way to go for every tank class?
eh not really "excited" just tired of people who were in beta for 2 weeks trying to tell me how much better something is when Ive played it for damn near 8 months and did all the testing needed to back up what im telling you. I am a min maxer, so I am giving you a min maxers input.

Ive parsed it, Ive ran the different groups different scenarios different configurations and hands down 2hand is the way to go in 99% of the situations where you are fighting. Even in zerg on zerg, if you have healers in your group the difference a shield will make against getting primaried is 2 seconds at best. If a zerg of 50 people target you, a shield is going to make **** all difference.

The bottom line is you don't need a "backline tank". With AE debuff, knockbacks, pbae stuns, pbae roots and the overall over potency of healing if your shaman isn't tanking 3 tanks at once he is doing something wrong. seriously. Maybe my problem is im used to running with people who group every night together and not pugging... maybe in pugging you will need a shield.. but the fact remains if you are primaried your primaried and there is nothing a shield is going to change about multiple sorcs/bw/sw's hitting you for 800-1k damage non crit.. no shield in the world of warhammer is going to save you from that even with a healer spamming you.

Im going order @ launch, and honestly I could care less if tanks play with shields or not because you are the last thing I worry about on the field as a rune priest or on my bright wizard. I do know I worry about a 2hander chasing me down a lot more then a 1handed sword and board tank. I am just trying to give you some info on what really is the situation in rvr and not "how it should be" according to those who wish it was different then it is.

Sure you can be super defensive.. gg's. Thanks for making my squishies in the group happy when they are getting hit for 17-50 because you are damage debuffed and they are crit healing for 3k.
 
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FalseMyrmidon
1700+
Old
80 - 08-28-2008, 08:23
I've been in beta since October last year so stop trying to pull the "I've been in beta longer" card on me. If you're going to play a tank with a 2 hander and focused offense (don't know if you're using focused offense) you'd probably be better off playing a brawler mdps (white lion or marauder).

I don't know why you'd roll a tank and then freak out over not doing enough damage. You're providing utility to the group in other ways.
 
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Last edited by FalseMyrmidon; 08-28-2008 at 08:51..
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