[T3] Shrikes?
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[meph]DooM!
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In any case, why should only people who are good with the T2 Shrike have any sort of opinion or influence in the discussion..
All in all though, i think that that shrike is a great addition to the game because it's another tool that a player can excel at. It adds depth to the game.
In base they were too overpowered, but in Classic, i feel they are much more balanced. Though yeah, they should take more damage from ramming people (not just the ground).
I didn't play competatively in T1, we're scouts used at all?
In base they were too overpowered, but in Classic, i feel they are much more balanced. Though yeah, they should take more damage from ramming people (not just the ground).
I didn't play competatively in T1, we're scouts used at all?
care to actually read my post? i didn't say that you had said you were better, i said your argument "suggests" that you are. work on those reading skills.R@ND0M said:Care to point out where I know more about Shriking than him?
Oops, you can't because I didn't say that
That's like saying "Yeah I'm good at shooting people in the back, while they're traveling in the opposite direction"
Can I get some more (A) ^ in here
If he's so good at shriking, why can't you beat Rapture?
Since you're conceding that ZP is the better shriker, that would seem to imply that he has more accurate knowledge for making an assessment about the abilities of the shrike in classic.
in any case, what awesome tribe are/were you in exactly? probably one so familiar with T2 classic gameplay that they'd know that a shriking is a good tool but can in no way win matches like it did in base.
further, until you've been on a #1 team, i'd hardly say that puts you in a position to criticize others that aren't. This thread could use a bit less posturing and attitude and a bit more humility and respect.
Next.
Ramming players in t2 top ten classic match play is no easy task, especially against good cappers who always come in full speed and know how to hug the terrain. If anyone thinks Ramming is easy it's because they only attempt it in pubs.
Classic physics balanced the shrike by allowing good shrikers one, if lucky, maybe two ram attempts on good cappers per grab. The shields are fine because decent cappers know how to mine disk with ease. Imho, very little if anything needs to be changed about the shrike's weapons or shrike's physics.
Dumbing it down would make it useless, and adding a bunch of easy to use weapons would make it overpowered. Right now in Classic match play, it is a useful tool for midfield play and occasional grabs and pickups. Its not the overpowered shrike of T2 Base play, nor is it the relatively useless concept that alot of t1 players would like to see it reduced to. I'd like to see the shrike come out in T3 looking a good bit like it plays in classic.
Classic physics balanced the shrike by allowing good shrikers one, if lucky, maybe two ram attempts on good cappers per grab. The shields are fine because decent cappers know how to mine disk with ease. Imho, very little if anything needs to be changed about the shrike's weapons or shrike's physics.
Dumbing it down would make it useless, and adding a bunch of easy to use weapons would make it overpowered. Right now in Classic match play, it is a useful tool for midfield play and occasional grabs and pickups. Its not the overpowered shrike of T2 Base play, nor is it the relatively useless concept that alot of t1 players would like to see it reduced to. I'd like to see the shrike come out in T3 looking a good bit like it plays in classic.
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Scouts were/are used to ram Heavy Offense at the beginning of a map like Raindance, where you'd usually get 5-6 HO coming straight at your base simultaneously.
Very few used them seriously in matches, lecatpuke was one of the few, and also FSB-SPY has been using them quite alot recently (I had to write him a fricken pilotmode script for a scrim).
Those few could hit midairs quite frequently (rockets alternated left-right firing positions per shot, making it harder to aim), and were annoying to play O against.
I could see them being used more without the flag-skip bug (If you die in a scout with the flag, or ram a carrier, the flag will skip/warp around the map for the remainder of the map, making it really hard to pickup or return. Unfortunately we can't 'fix' this without hacks (i.e: making players carrying flags unable to hop into vehicles) because nobody has access to the source code. A bug just as annoying as beacon-hanging, if not more-so.
Very few used them seriously in matches, lecatpuke was one of the few, and also FSB-SPY has been using them quite alot recently (I had to write him a fricken pilotmode script for a scrim).
Those few could hit midairs quite frequently (rockets alternated left-right firing positions per shot, making it harder to aim), and were annoying to play O against.
I could see them being used more without the flag-skip bug (If you die in a scout with the flag, or ram a carrier, the flag will skip/warp around the map for the remainder of the map, making it really hard to pickup or return. Unfortunately we can't 'fix' this without hacks (i.e: making players carrying flags unable to hop into vehicles) because nobody has access to the source code. A bug just as annoying as beacon-hanging, if not more-so.
Imo, KineticPoet was correct in considering vehicles as additional types of 'armor'.. and thus I believe they should be balanced accordingly. I've always felt that Shrikes and other vehicles in T2 were, to an extent, displaced from the action; as if they were playing a 'seperate' game. This was mostly prevalent in base, as vehicles were able to interact with the 'battlefield' (ramming, blastering, moving about) while the actual players couldn't really interact with the vehicles (no mine disk + super shields = suck). It was truly pitiful how little 'skill' or 'intelligence' meant when faced with such vehicles... in that you could be the greatest player in the world, but if you don't have a uber-newbie auto-aiming faggot gun (missile launcher) you couldn't really do much to vehicles. In the Classic mod, fortunately this was changed... as lower shields coupled with faster speeds (for armors) along with MDs improved the balance tremendously.. but for the next Tribes game, I believe it could be better.
One of the greatest strengths of Tribes (imo), is the fact that there aren't any artificial limitations enforced on players... in that you can achieve just about anything if you are good/smart enough (regardless of your current loadout). On many maps you can rape gens, defend your flag/base, and cap all in spawn gear... even though it can be quite a bit easier (depending on the map) if you have a well-suited loadout. You can also kill anyone (regardless of their loadout) while in spawn gear, even though the equipped player will tend to have an advantage... the better player will almost always prevail (regardless of equipment).
Vehicles in Tribes 1 can be easily chained down, the pilot can be sniped/disked/etc.. and although they may be a bit underpowered (with the exception of owning RTs, hofs, and scout capping) they are hardly 'displaced' from the action (as they are in Tribes 2).
Obviously, the scout in Tribes 1 was designed for a completely different game (without skiing/djing)... and if it's truly necessary to include vehicles in the next Tribes game.. they should be designed with T1-like speed in mind. In which case, I'd recommend a 'hybrid' vehicle of the T1 scout and the T2 shrike. Tribes is all about freedom of motion, and the vehicles should be no exception. They should each offer an alternative method of movement (each requiring great skill to master), while retaining a semblance of balance with respect to the primary medium(s) of transportation (skiing/djing). Vehicles should be very fast, and very poorly armored/shielded... allowing great players in spawn to easily dispatch decent/average players in vehicles. Vehicles should merely offer an advantage (comparable to the cost of acquiring a vehicle: time + gens + v-pad), much like how an e-pack affords a nice advantage to a player in Tribes (but you still have to do the work yourself, and it doesn't magically protect you from better players). Thus, the 'scout' or 'shrike' of Tribes 3 should imo be very fast, have a disk like projectile (which should be powerful, as it would require great skill to use), have poor shielding (you should be able to kill the pilot), and have incredible maneuverability (instead of automatically absorbing various projectiles, you should have to dodge). Furthermore, they should never be necessary (as they were in T2 base) to achieve an important objective (such as capping...).
One of the greatest strengths of Tribes (imo), is the fact that there aren't any artificial limitations enforced on players... in that you can achieve just about anything if you are good/smart enough (regardless of your current loadout). On many maps you can rape gens, defend your flag/base, and cap all in spawn gear... even though it can be quite a bit easier (depending on the map) if you have a well-suited loadout. You can also kill anyone (regardless of their loadout) while in spawn gear, even though the equipped player will tend to have an advantage... the better player will almost always prevail (regardless of equipment).
Vehicles in Tribes 1 can be easily chained down, the pilot can be sniped/disked/etc.. and although they may be a bit underpowered (with the exception of owning RTs, hofs, and scout capping) they are hardly 'displaced' from the action (as they are in Tribes 2).
Obviously, the scout in Tribes 1 was designed for a completely different game (without skiing/djing)... and if it's truly necessary to include vehicles in the next Tribes game.. they should be designed with T1-like speed in mind. In which case, I'd recommend a 'hybrid' vehicle of the T1 scout and the T2 shrike. Tribes is all about freedom of motion, and the vehicles should be no exception. They should each offer an alternative method of movement (each requiring great skill to master), while retaining a semblance of balance with respect to the primary medium(s) of transportation (skiing/djing). Vehicles should be very fast, and very poorly armored/shielded... allowing great players in spawn to easily dispatch decent/average players in vehicles. Vehicles should merely offer an advantage (comparable to the cost of acquiring a vehicle: time + gens + v-pad), much like how an e-pack affords a nice advantage to a player in Tribes (but you still have to do the work yourself, and it doesn't magically protect you from better players). Thus, the 'scout' or 'shrike' of Tribes 3 should imo be very fast, have a disk like projectile (which should be powerful, as it would require great skill to use), have poor shielding (you should be able to kill the pilot), and have incredible maneuverability (instead of automatically absorbing various projectiles, you should have to dodge). Furthermore, they should never be necessary (as they were in T2 base) to achieve an important objective (such as capping...).
R@ND0M said:
I added vehicle damage from ramming to a mod and it was pretty neat, faster you ram and heavier the target = more damage to shrike.
I only suggested missiles for vehicles because someone mentioned newbs and vehicle weapons - I dont care what weapon is on the shrike as long as it is useful.
I dont think vehicles should be so easily killed by normal armors, otherwise I just couldn't be bothered to use the clumsy things.
and I thought ramming was pretty easy - even at high ping with shit skills.
XY, what you have described sounds like the Classic shrike to me. Cept maybe you have suggested giving the t3 shrike a disk weapon instead of the blasters.
The classic shrike is very easy to chain down and cannot take much of a hit from anything these days. It relys on speed, not shields. Not to mention it takes a good shriker not to get mine disked by a half decent capper or HO. I would like to see the blasters stay, as they serve well their purpose of being an anti vehicle weapon, and also for shrikers of above average skill, an anti personell weapon. While the shrike may have been "displaced" in t2 base, so that the players on foot could not engage only be engaged, this is certainly no longer the case in classic.
The classic shrike is very easy to chain down and cannot take much of a hit from anything these days. It relys on speed, not shields. Not to mention it takes a good shriker not to get mine disked by a half decent capper or HO. I would like to see the blasters stay, as they serve well their purpose of being an anti vehicle weapon, and also for shrikers of above average skill, an anti personell weapon. While the shrike may have been "displaced" in t2 base, so that the players on foot could not engage only be engaged, this is certainly no longer the case in classic.
Compared to the scout the shrike is not easy to chain down.
Maybe a solution would be to split the sheild and blaster/jet energy, and "skimp" on both. make it so 25-30 cg bullets would completely deplete the shield and destroy the shrike. Make it so an impact with a light would deplete about 2/3's of the shield, and that it would take around 4 or 5 seconds to refresh.
you have to keep the jet/blaster energy linked though i think, or change the weapon to something you can run out of ammunition for.
Maybe a solution would be to split the sheild and blaster/jet energy, and "skimp" on both. make it so 25-30 cg bullets would completely deplete the shield and destroy the shrike. Make it so an impact with a light would deplete about 2/3's of the shield, and that it would take around 4 or 5 seconds to refresh.
you have to keep the jet/blaster energy linked though i think, or change the weapon to something you can run out of ammunition for.
I guess I think the scout was too easy to chain down. I like the t2 shrike for its added strength. Its enuff to make it a weapon instead of a transport only. Any capper/HO worth their salt will be quite practiced at mine disking an attacking shrike.
The only type of Shrike ram that is very very difficult to make a decent mine disk attempt at is one that comes from head on, and those shouldn't be easy to stop since they are certainly not easy to hit.
As for the shields taking damage on a sucessful ram I dunno about that. If you make that effect too strong against the shields, the shrike will go back to being a transport only. If this effect were to be added to t3 it should be some shield damage for ramming heavies and very little for ramming lights.
In my humble opinion, the classic changes that affected player speed increases, shrike shield decreases, and the addition of the mine disk were enough to balace the dominance of the shrike that was witnessed in t2 Base. If much more is taken away from it in t3, it will become a boring and relatively useless one man transport.
The only type of Shrike ram that is very very difficult to make a decent mine disk attempt at is one that comes from head on, and those shouldn't be easy to stop since they are certainly not easy to hit.
As for the shields taking damage on a sucessful ram I dunno about that. If you make that effect too strong against the shields, the shrike will go back to being a transport only. If this effect were to be added to t3 it should be some shield damage for ramming heavies and very little for ramming lights.
In my humble opinion, the classic changes that affected player speed increases, shrike shield decreases, and the addition of the mine disk were enough to balace the dominance of the shrike that was witnessed in t2 Base. If much more is taken away from it in t3, it will become a boring and relatively useless one man transport.
verve said:
Yeah, but if it was a nice outside flag, all you had to do was use the blaster (shock horror) - or another weapon - to shoot the scout until it was within a feather of death... fly flat out in the direction of the flag, clip the ground so the scout blew up and threw you at lightspeed forwards toward the flag with a good amount of health left after repair kit usage.
As to stopping dead still after you jump out of a moving vehicle is stupid, anything is better then that. The G-forces on the body in the real world would just about kill you i am sure.Not being able to jump out at full speed is a far better idea.
Shrike capping coupled with nerfed skiing physics really took a lot of the fun out of capping in T2 (until classic, which sadly I don't have time to play).
Capping in T1 was far and away the most fun I've had in Tribes.
I would vote for making the shrike eject similar to the T1 shrike eject.
Make cappers be elite skiiers.
Capping in T1 was far and away the most fun I've had in Tribes.
I would vote for making the shrike eject similar to the T1 shrike eject.
Make cappers be elite skiiers.
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