My not so small review of SWTOR as a Operative / Juggernaut by ferret - TribalWar Forums
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Reload this Page My not so small review of SWTOR as a Operative / Juggernaut
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ferret
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1 - 12-27-2011, 13:50
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After spending most of the last 2 weeks playing SWTOR, I thought I would put in my two cents about the game. If you are planning to play this game, the best summary I can give is it is a basic wow clone in a Star Wars galaxy. Overall, I don't think this is totally a bad thing. First person shooters and mmo's both stick to a formula that works and there's nothing wrong with that.

The storyline so far is good, however the gameplay keeps me coming. I would like to see an mmo try to break from the basic mob / trash / boss system, and while Star Wars presented an excellent oppurtunity, I don't fault them for keeping it. Crafting / Skills are done really well. The quest actions do flow really well and there's little downtime, and unlike wow I don't find myself wondering when does it start to get fun...

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Opinions Class Gameplay (skip if you don't want to hear my rantings)

So far I've played a Operative, and a Juggernaut, so my opinion could sway wildy if I played another class, so keep that in mind.


I know this is going to get me in some hot water, but there is a fine line between skill and faceroll. IMO, anyone should be able to play a class easily to get to 50, it shouldn't be that hard. If my 11 year old nephew wants to play an mmo, he should be able to faceroll through the storyline. Since there isn't an easy mode in an mmo (ret pally amirite!) every class should be easy to play in a single player questing type mode without much difficulty.

That being said...

Classes should also be versatile enough though that a good player can maximize his abilities that would show a reward in end game (PVP / Raiding). I can't really judge this in SWTOR since I am not in end game, but it does seem like their intent.

I guess my point is, classes should have to only use 4 buttons to survive, but have 20 more relevant options available that would improve their situation somehow....

My experience is from WOW (up to WOTLK) with a Shammy, Warrior, and a Hunter on a pvp server. I played some arena, did bg's alot (admittedly my favorite aspect) and the weekly raids for an average guild. I've also played DAOC as a Scout. Overall, I'm your average mmo player. Of course, my opinion about mmo's is 60% of the playerbase is average, 38% is bad, and 2% are amazing.

On to the classes:
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Operative:

I didn't want to play an Op at first but rolled it because no one else was. Since the game is new I tend to go to the class that no one else is going to can fill any voids needed in end game. Since it heals, has ranged and stealth combat, the gameplay is different than what I'm used to (close to a druid in wow). I didn't want to like the class but its now my main. Its just not very Star Warsish...

The Operative / Sniper class can be a difficult or an easy class to play. Sadly, pew pewing my snipe is nearly as efficient as my 6 button stealth / backstab rotation. I can also take out elites fairly easily if I open up, then let my companion tank while I heal, and then finish off after my cd's reset. I'm not sure how hard this is with other classes, but I can take most heroic mob pulls. Healing seems like any other class, and seems to be more HoT based so far. I haven't speced in it so I will not put a definitive opinion on it.

The storyline flows very well and though its very petty, I'm pretty sure my character has nailed at least 3 chicks far (yeah...). I enjoy this line much more than the actual Sith Warrior story.

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Juggernaut:

After about 12 levels as an Op I thought, "Screw this, I bought this game to melt faces with a saber." So I rolled a Sith Warrior and went Juggernaut. After about 12 levels as a Jugg I went back to the Op.

The Juggernaut is just a frustrating class; you need a rotation just to get by. Not a difficult one but one that still forces you to work to hard for half what I can pew pew as an Op. Not only that but the rotation feels clumsy and worked at best. It plays almost identical to a Warrior in WOW except more rage starved and the abilities all seem lacking. Granted, I've only played this to 14 but reading the end game comments nothing seems to change.

Furthermore, the storyline of the Sith seems forced. Bioware seems to focus too much on the light and dark side; I realize these guys are supposed to be dicks, but many of the quest decisions made seem backwards; to get force points you have to make the opposite of the logical option.
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A small minor complaint is the battle flow. For both my classes, the animations don't seem to be well designed from a flow perspective.

The classes in SWTOR have actions that may work well for the overall playability but do not flow well. For example, with my Operative, I will open up with a backstab, then stop what I'm doing to shoot a dart, then I use a shocking device for a stun, and then finish off with my gun (Overload Shot). No one would ever do this in real life and while it doesn't affect the gameplay, it bothers me. The same seems to go for Saber classes that in the middle of slicing something up, stop everything to cast a spell, then go on slicing.

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Crafting / Gathering:
I really enjoy the crafting and gathering in this game. Okay, I havent made a single thing, but I like the concepts they put in there. Basic Gathering hasn't changed much from other mmo's, but the mission concept is awesome. At first I thought it was like cheating, but in the end sending a companion to do your work is alot funner than wandering around a zone doing it yourself. Plus, its something I can do while not playing the game (i.e. the laundry or dishes)
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Questing:

So far I enjoy the storylines very much, though I am tempted to skip through the scenes. After a few hours of playing you do grow tired of the scenes and just want to get to content, but in the end it makes the game more enjoyable. The bonus quests are a nice touch and the quest design seem to be designed fairly well....lets not kid ourselves, its just like wow (which isn't a bad thing)
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Space Combat:

Really, really, really, fun, but pretty much a faceroll. I don't know if it will tie in to end game or get harder, but so far it is like playing an 80's arcade game. Again, I have fun, and its a good way to relax outside the mmo itself, but I would have made it more complex and realistic (not that shooting down 70 fighters in 5 minutes isn't realistic....)

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Overall, I really like the game. It doesn't stand out as an MMO, but it doesn't suck either. Each class seems to play different, which is good. I don't know if I'll ever hit end game and if I do that would be a whole new review.
 
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PessimiStick
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2 - 12-27-2011, 18:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferret View Post

A small minor complaint is the battle flow. For both my classes, the animations don't seem to be well designed from a flow perspective.

The classes in SWTOR have actions that may work well for the overall playability but do not flow well. For example, with my Operative, I will open up with a backstab, then stop what I'm doing to shoot a dart, then I use a shocking device for a stun, and then finish off with my gun (Overload Shot). No one would ever do this in real life and while it doesn't affect the gameplay, it bothers me. The same seems to go for Saber classes that in the middle of slicing something up, stop everything to cast a spell, then go on slicing.
The animations looking dumb isn't nearly as big a problem as the fact that they actually count as part of the skill, and lock you out from doing anything else until they finish. There are a lot of skills that have 1.5s cast times, but actually lock you for 2 full seconds because of the stupid animations.
 
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Heimdal
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3 - 12-29-2011, 21:00
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Originally Posted by ferret View Post
Juggernaut:

After about 12 levels as an Op I thought, "Screw this, I bought this game to melt faces with a saber." So I rolled a Sith Warrior and went Juggernaut. After about 12 levels as a Jugg I went back to the Op.

The Juggernaut is just a frustrating class; you need a rotation just to get by. Not a difficult one but one that still forces you to work to hard for half what I can pew pew as an Op. Not only that but the rotation feels clumsy and worked at best. It plays almost identical to a Warrior in WOW except more rage starved and the abilities all seem lacking. Granted, I've only played this to 14 but reading the end game comments nothing seems to change.
Wait, really? Juggernaut could not be any easier to solo as up to around 20 or so. Force Charge -> Smash with Vengeance talents and you have yourself a dead group of normals. It is, as you said you wanted, a 2-4 button class. Then it gets harder, but you'll have a healing companion by then. It is still very efficient for leveling. I'm 33 on mine at the moment, and it was a total breeze getting there. Once you get Shien Form at level 20 in Vengeance you will never be out of rage. Ever.

Quote:
Furthermore, the storyline of the Sith seems forced. Bioware seems to focus too much on the light and dark side; I realize these guys are supposed to be dicks, but many of the quest decisions made seem backwards; to get force points you have to make the opposite of the logical option.
I realize you didn't get very far, but the story line is actually pretty awesome by the end of Dromund Kaas and on. Nar Shaddaa and Alderaan especially.

Although I personally liked the Juggernaut pretty much the whole way though, I guess I can see how you'd want a class to be fun from start to finish. Once you get 18+ all of those issues are really nonexistent though.
 
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PessimiStick
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4 - 12-30-2011, 00:59
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Jugg is really weak compared to a lot of other options. I have a 37 Jugg and a 40 Merc, and the Merc destroys mobs compared to the Jugg. It's not even close.
 
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ferret
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5 - 12-30-2011, 05:19
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Originally Posted by Heimdal View Post
Wait, really? Juggernaut could not be any easier to solo as up to around 20 or so. Force Charge -> Smash with Vengeance talents and you have yourself a dead group of normals. It is, as you said you wanted, a 2-4 button class. Then it gets harder, but you'll have a healing companion by then. It is still very efficient for leveling. I'm 33 on mine at the moment, and it was a total breeze getting there. Once you get Shien Form at level 20 in Vengeance you will never be out of rage. Ever.


I realize you didn't get very far, but the story line is actually pretty awesome by the end of Dromund Kaas and on. Nar Shaddaa and Alderaan especially.

Although I personally liked the Juggernaut pretty much the whole way though, I guess I can see how you'd want a class to be fun from start to finish. Once you get 18+ all of those issues are really nonexistent though.
What Pessimistick said I think is right, although I tend to reserve judgement in mmo's unless I hear it from my friends. That being said, there is an abundance of qq threads in the jugg forums about them being gimped.

I actually loved the Force Charge; my favorite thing to do with a Jugg was to find a mob at the bottom of a cliff, jump off it and hit Force Charge. I know, kiddiesh, but it was fun. The issue for me was what went past it; I was either rage starved looking at buttons to see what was coming off cd. I probably didn't give it time, but for me it felt like something was lacking.

As far as the Jugg vs. my Op, its no contest. Ops have so much utility it just makes the whole thing very fun. Energy management isn't too difficult if you realize some key concepts and there are many options in pvp; one minute I'm healing, another sniping, then ganking.

The storyline for Op is amazing still but its hard to judge if you haven't done them all.
 
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Heimdal
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6 - 12-30-2011, 14:03
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Originally Posted by PessimiStick View Post
Jugg is really weak compared to a lot of other options. I have a 37 Jugg and a 40 Merc, and the Merc destroys mobs compared to the Jugg. It's not even close.
You're comparing a fully offensive class (and yeah, I know they have a healing tree) to a tanky DPS one. Of course the Mercenary does more than the Juggernaut does, but the Juggernaut isn't frustrating at all. Especially 1-20 where it's actually faster than most classes since 1 Smash blows up everything.

I leveled from 1-31 as Vengeance, and I've been leveling as Immortal ever since and it's very good. I can't blow things up with Smash anymore, but I pretty much can't die unless I'm being really stupid. A trade off I'm fine with.
 
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Last edited by Heimdal; 12-30-2011 at 14:39..
PessimiStick
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7 - 12-30-2011, 14:45
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I have both classes at around the same level. BH is just way, way better at soloing.
 
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Heimdal
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8 - 01-01-2012, 15:42
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I actually do as well, and I prefer my Juggernaut for soloing

Not even the point I was even making. Just that the Juggernaut is a great solo class. Never said anything about it being the best. Hell pretty much every class can solo well. Our Operative in full heal spec can solo with ease. It's just how this game is.
 
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SL83
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9 - 01-03-2012, 08:26
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I re-rolled Jedi Knight Sentinel because I really wanted the force leap.

But like Ferret said, you do a couple of moves and then you start looking around for buttons to use because your Force Focus is at zero, and the one that yields you 6 focus points is still cooling down - so you just start slashing with the first and weakest attack.

My rotation was something like:

Force leap, then zealous strike, then Slash, then cauterize, master strike, maybe force sweep, blade storm, and reposte if I parried - usually a yes.

Then repeat with zealous strike. If it wasn't back by then, or I didn't have enough focus, it was a bunch of the regular Strike attacks to build focus.

I'm gonna re-roll as a smuggler or whatever the other class is using guns.
 
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Last edited by SL83; 01-03-2012 at 08:34..
PessimiStick
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10 - 01-03-2012, 08:56
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Sumggler/Sniper is horrendously un-fun, just FYI. The cover mechanic is awful.
 
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SL83
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11 - 01-03-2012, 10:10
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So you'd recommend Trooper: Commando or Vanguard but not Smuggler: Gunslinger or Scoundrel?
 
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Fool
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12 - 01-03-2012, 10:29
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I didn't care for the Jugg when I tried it out, mostly because I dislike rage. Heat and Force use aren't even close to being as restricted.
 
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Pagy
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13 - 01-03-2012, 10:31
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the operative will likely be the first class under the nerf bat... and for the wrong reasons. a geared operative can hidden strike people for 5k crit ith a knockdown from talents, backstabbing, shiv, lacertate...

people are freaking out over this atm... and the issue isn't the class, it's surge. they aren't realizing how easy it is to stack crit + surge with a 77-80% modifier. my gear sucks and I have a 72% modifier ffs. crits are enormous and way too unproportional.
 
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d0ur
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14 - 01-03-2012, 10:31
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Sumggler/Sniper is horrendously un-fun, just FYI. The cover mechanic is awful.
this.

i dropped gunslinger at 16 b/c of how stupid it is to constantly have to be in cover to perform your best dmg and moves. Its silly when comparing what a Merc can do vs a sniper or a commando vs a gunslinger when they dont have to rely on the cover mechanic.
 
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Pagy
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15 - 01-03-2012, 10:34
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the cover mechanic wouldn't be too bad if only it wasn't bugged to hell... it needs to be a lot more fluid.
 
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Shopper47
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16 - 01-03-2012, 10:43
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Shadow has force starvation and is (in my spec) very similar to recent Wow Sub specs. I can open (PVP)with a backstab, backstab again, stun, backstab a third time and then dump my shadow spec on them but then I am basically done with burst and if I am lucky I knocked down 60-70% of their damage and then I am spamming my weak non-force attack trying to finish them off before being blown sky high.

PVE is fine for normals and elites but on bosses it's the same thing. 30 seconds of burst and then me going *swing swing* *swing swing* for piddly damage with the occasional Mind Crush and Combat Judgement (dots).

I have a bunch of stuns and dazes though and with my companion we can solo even most Heroic 2 man quests.

Looking at something like this for BGs at 50

Skill Calculator - Star Wars: The Old Republic (SWTOR) Database
 
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Last edited by Shopper47; 01-03-2012 at 11:33..
ferret
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17 - 01-03-2012, 11:27
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Originally Posted by Pagy View Post
the operative will likely be the first class under the nerf bat... and for the wrong reasons. a geared operative can hidden strike people for 5k crit ith a knockdown from talents, backstabbing, shiv, lacertate...

people are freaking out over this atm... and the issue isn't the class, it's surge. they aren't realizing how easy it is to stack crit + surge with a 77-80% modifier. my gear sucks and I have a 72% modifier ffs. crits are enormous and way too unproportional.
Reminds me of the Rogue back in WOW...

I personally don't feel overpowered, if I don't win it in my initial burst I am done and cloak out or die. The one problem I see with the game is you have all levels pvping and its hard to gauge if its the system or the class. I'd like to see them wait until we have alot of 50's out there.



Stealth classes always get the short end because fighting one requires more than just pressing your main attack.
 
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Pagy
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18 - 01-03-2012, 11:37
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here's the problem, if everything crits, I can do 7-8k Dmg btw 3 attacks from stealth... taking into account I have 31 pts in medicine and have crap gear... And hidden strike and bs have a 51% chance to crit...

if I had lacertate and acid blade he'd be pretty boned...

and if my crit modifier was like 50-60 it would be a lot more balanced.

but people don't take into account what I can do after this initial attack, they just recall dying. hopefully expertise will protect people... also thing they need to work on armor mitigation. I shouldn't crit troopers for 4k that's just dumb.
 
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AdreNaLiNe
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19 - 01-03-2012, 11:59
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For those that are complaining about sentinels...My sentinel simply blows ass to play. The problem isn't rage. Specing it properly gives me almost full rage on a charge + the ability that gives 6 focus.

The problem with the class is that EVERY SINGLE REAL ABILITY is on a cooldown.

There is nothing I ****ing hate more in PvP than trying to stay on a guy while staring at my cooldown bars. It's not even fun. I don't even see the animations or what else is going on around me.

Edit: That's why I'm playing my Shadow Consular. Also, blackout makes you have longer high energy regen. Specing into getting Shadow Respite when stealthed gives you a ton of energy. So for basically 12 seconds, I have a full bar, which is plenty time to do some serious damage. Can't say how it'll play at 50 though, only 32 atm.
 
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Last edited by AdreNaLiNe; 01-03-2012 at 12:01..
AdreNaLiNe
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20 - 01-03-2012, 12:04
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Originally Posted by Pagy View Post
here's the problem, if everything crits, I can do 7-8k Dmg btw 3 attacks from stealth... taking into account I have 31 pts in medicine and have crap gear... And hidden strike and bs have a 51% chance to crit...

if I had lacertate and acid blade he'd be pretty boned...

and if my crit modifier was like 50-60 it would be a lot more balanced.

but people don't take into account what I can do after this initial attack, they just recall dying. hopefully expertise will protect people... also thing they need to work on armor mitigation. I shouldn't crit troopers for 4k that's just dumb.
That's ridiculous. Coming out of stealth, within the first 1.5 seconds, I can do around 7k damage. In another 1.5, I can put out about 10.5k on a clothie. This assumes everything crits of course. However against heavy/medium armor, if I crit, I am down to lke 6k. Are your moves considered physical damage?
 
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