An Overpowered Buckler?

Some good points in this thread.

You have 1 buckler ammo. After you throw it, you have 0. It'll travel into the world. During its flight you can control it. (You can actually draw all kinds of funky shapes while it travels through the air because it has a trail behind it). It boomerangs back to you. Currently it's only in the air for a couple seconds (making it best for mid-range combat). When and if you get it back, you have 1 ammo again. But if it gets caught up somewhere in the world, it bounces away and you're left with only 2 weapons (unless you take the time to go pick it up again). So it can be risky to throw it.

It's currently pretty hard to reflect projectiles. And, when thrown, the damage it inflicts is probably too high right now. And there's definitely something wrong with its knockback effect. If anyone tries the buckler at E3, please keep in mind that we need to do some more work on it.

As for balance, consider this. Lights have a sniper rifle that has pinpoint accuracy and can inflict lots of damage, especially to the head (actually I think a head shot to another light is currently a one-shot-kill, but there is lots of room to tune this). Heavies have a mortar that has a huge radius of effect and is usually a one-shot-kill weapon. Now mediums have a buckler. It'll require balancing, sure, but that's the fun of adding new stuff.

The rocket pod is currently a powerful weapon as well. I've never used a weapon like it. And the burner has undergone some changes that I think you'll find to be interesting,
KP
 
DwarfVader said:
KP you are my hero, will you be at E3, I owe both you and Thrax a drink.
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Nah, thanks DV but I'm no hero. We have a team full of talented people working hard on the game down here. I won't be at E3, but I'll take a rain check on that drink. =)
KP
 
KineticPoet said:
Nah, thanks DV but I'm no hero. We have a team full of talented people working hard on the game down here. I won't be at E3, but I'll take a rain check on that drink. =)
KP
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No worries, keep up the good work, you're the one that always provides us with answers we can think about.... For that you have our support.
 
Not worrying: I enjoy the speculation.

Now, you say the buckler can be caught up on something so that it falls away and doesn't return. What if another player were to cause this on their own by BBing the buckler before you can catch it? This is assuming a situation where you're fending off one enemy as another flies in to screw you up. It would require a great deal of skill to block the buckler without you noticing, but in tighter quarters (small hallways) it might be a real concern.

Also, after the buckler shot is dropped, can another player pick it up as if it were an independent weapon or does it function as a fallen extension of the original?
 
Your target is not that much of a concern, unless they dodge the knockback and get within the sphere of your buckler shot.

Once the enemy dodges the buckler, they also have the option of MAing you behind a hill and thus negating the buckler in a different manner.

Should cause some tense dueling situations that require real thought and layers of tactics.
 
Zoolooman said:
This is a little more generic than this thread, but it has to deal with game design in general, and communities who try and balance their games.

There has been a tendency to underpower game mechanics. This is because a group of people will dislike mechanic A, and so even though mechanic A is balanced, in thir minds any effective use of the item will be a sign of its "overpowered design." Therefore, these people often want to rebalance mechanic A so that it's effect on gameplay becomes negligible.

After enough whining, mechanic A is finally nerfed. For example, for a while in classic WC3, this was an incredible problem. Even though the races were statistically balanced at some points, people simply didn't like some of the tools being used. Hence, they complained until the items were finally nerfed, at which point, NOBODY USED THEM.

To tie this into the buckler, or any other T:V object, everything has to be SLIGHTLY overpowered. If it isn't, then it won't be useful enough to be taken. In other words, nerfing items is often the equivalent of removing the item altogether. If the buckler isn't marginally advantageous, then nobody will use it.

Therefore, you don't want to make something a DISADVANTAGE to hold. You want to make holding anything advantageous, in order to assure that those things are even used. In theory, this buckler seems to be balanced. I don't think it's overpowered until it overwhelms all other game mechanics to the exclusion of even using them.
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I agree.

I would add that many first impressions lead to premature nerfing of things considered overpowered. Players initially encounter something that is being effectively employed against them, and because they can not immediately determine an obvious counter, they assume it therefore muxt be over-powered or unbalanced. I've seen many games plunge headlong into "Balance Patches" (Planetside was(is) notorious for its ever shifting and reshifting of balance) shortly after a game releases. The entire community is new to the game and the game can not possibly be fully explored and yet the forums are lit up with "Nerf It" threads. Later on, after some time for the community to mature, the ironic counters no one saw in their "newbness" are found, but now they're unneeded because its already been nerfed.


As for the buckler, I think it'll have to be easy to use, or it won't get used at all. While its capable of reflecting all kinds of projectiles, unless it is good at that function, its a liability and not an assest. Unless a player is assured he's not going to take much damage, he's not going to let himself take a hit by trying to intercept a projectile with the Buckler.

Snipers will simply aim for an exposed part of the body

Most "disk" type projectiles rely on splash damage and targets take more damage from proximity to Ground Zero then they do from direct hits.

Even if you deflect a Mortar Shell, it'll still land near you. Unless it inherits "impulse" to push it clear from you, it'll land in close proximity and inflict splast damage.

The Flamer will prolley still ignite you. Especially if it misses any part of you and fails to make a direct hit (from the impressions left by KP on the subject).


So, I don't think its current impression is overpowered, I'd be concerned for just how effective it'll be overall as is. As a "Class Specific" weapon, it can't be too specific in the kind of roles and enviroment it can be successfully employed. You can't say, "The Buckler is really ment for scenario A, indoors and for pretection and against the Blaster." Thus leaving any scenario outside of that one example equating to an ineffective Buckler. Light Armours always are seen using their Weapon, the Sniper Rifle and same with the Heavies whom almost exclusively use nothing else but their mortars. It shouldn't then be reason to think the Buckler is overpowered if Medium Armour is seen using it just as much and with great success by its intended design.

I'd say you'd have to be pretty generous with the "deflection" mode because thats a major part of its function. It's already limited by roll because of its range and its singular ammo count that must be recovered for the weapon to continue in service (implying that "throwing it" is really only advisable for moments when you're confident you'll kill your opponent or at least get the buckler back before he kills you!). It would be like limiting the Sniper Rifle by saying a target can't be within a minimun of X meters. It has to be good at deflecting damage away from the medium that's generated in the front quarter. Besides, with only 3 weapon slots, not every Medium is going to be playing a role where they can spare a slot for the Buckler "just in case" they're in a scenario that would benifit from having it.

The impression I get from hearing about its different modes is that this weapon gives up its offensive ability for greater defensive options. If its limited in the amount of damage it'll dish out, it better be good negating damage dished back to you in return. Or else... why would you trade off your firepower at all if it isn't going to reliably help?
 
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A lot of the weapons, discs included, are explained as using some form of energy either for their propulsion or the way they deal damage, except for mortars and grenades (sniper bullets don't count for this question, as I will now point out). Burners are a different concept altogether, so they can be excluded as well.

Now, is it because of these energy-bound properties that certain projecticles are deflected or is all weapon fire deflected regardless? I ask this because it seems a mortar shell or grenade would not simply bounce off when it hits a solid object such as the Buckler, but explode on contact. The Buckler would then aid you by reducing the amount of damage dealt to you.

So, does the Buckler reflect mortars and grenades, or do they explode on contact with the Buckler? Either way, launching the Buckler out to hit a mortar or grenade in-flight would stop it from reaching its target, so the concern is for the weapon's passive mode: does the player take damage from a MA mortar on a Buckler or does the shell bounce off?

I apologize if I missed this somewhere, but I only heard of the Buckler today and I'm still unclear on some of its properties.
 
Ahhh... less:
capshield.gif


And more:
tron.gif
 
The buckler is sort of a wierd weapon from a conventional standpoint :\

in all seriousness it seems to be the most unrealistic weapon...

I mean a shield that flies and you can control and it boomerangs back to you..

In terms of addition to gameplay.. I see it as being a core weapon for mediums simply because with control it might be easier to ma with it then Disk..
 
Rigel said:
...
Asking questions about the game is completely normal, but seriously nobody knows nothing and they're still making wild assumptions.
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First of all, I don't think my concerns can be considered "wild assumptions" by any standard. We have been given some amount of information, and I am simply basing my questions off of that. In case you haven't noticed, most of the threads in this forum are based on speculation, and if you're not here for the speculation and discussion, I don't know what you're here for. The DevTracker does a much better job of giving you straight out facts, so maybe you should just stick to that. :shrug:

Keep in mind that most of the information on the DevTracker would not be there if it weren't for posts such as these.

poisonspider said:
The buckler blocks sniper rounds. It takes ammunition as well as energy I beleive.
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I know it can block sniper rounds, I only said "won't he potentially be able to block just about all incoming fire if he is midair, given that he is quick/skilled enough (except the sniper rounds, of course)?" because I suspect it to be physically impossible (without hacks) to move your crosshair fast enough as to "skillfully" block an incoming sniper round. :p

And yes, the Buckler does indeed reflect sniper rounds. It even reflects rockets (your opponent loses his guidance ability once the rocket is reflected).

Zoolooman said:
...
After enough whining, mechanic A is finally nerfed. For example, for a while in classic WC3, this was an incredible problem. Even though the races were statistically balanced at some points, people simply didn't like some of the tools being used. Hence, they complained until the items were finally nerfed, at which point, NOBODY USED THEM.

To tie this into the buckler, or any other T:V object, everything has to be SLIGHTLY overpowered. If it isn't, then it won't be useful enough to be taken. In other words, nerfing items is often the equivalent of removing the item altogether. If the buckler isn't marginally advantageous, then nobody will use it.
...
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I agree with you for the most part, and I didn't mean for this thread to be a crusade on nerfing the Buckler, but I do feel that no weapon in the game should be overpowered. That being said, I do agree with your point that "everything has to be SLIGHTLY overpowered," even though it may seem contradictory to what I just stated. My agruement being that if everything is truly considered to be overpowered, then nothing is in fact overpowered. Does that make sense? Overpowered is a term I use relative to other items/weapons in the game. More accurately, I feel that ideally, each weapon should have it's own "place" in the game, and should perhaps be overpowered relative to another weapon given a particular situation, but of course not in all, or even most situations (if it were, it would indeed make the weapon overpowered). Additionally, I feel that having one or two overpowered weapons is more destructive to gameplay than having one or two underpowered weapons.
 
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VaporTrail said:
Ahhh... less:
http://www.nitrocomics.com/capshield.gif

And more:
http://www.emrl.com/~dz-015/record/tron.gif
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I would also like to note that much of the concerns I stated in my original post might have been because of the analogy made to Captain America's shield. Captain America's shield was pretty damn big and powerful. :)

I actually like the concept of the Buckler, as it is certainly something very different from the other weapons (all of the new weapons, in fact, seem to have this "uniqueness" when compared to the other weapons, and this is something I am very excited about).

NecroSen said:
...
Now, is it because of these energy-bound properties that certain projecticles are deflected or is all weapon fire deflected regardless? I ask this because it seems a mortar shell or grenade would not simply bounce off when it hits a solid object such as the Buckler, but explode on contact. The Buckler would then aid you by reducing the amount of damage dealt to you.
...
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As far as I know, all weapon fire is indeed reflected. The two specific projectiles I asked KP and Thrax about were the sniper rounds and rockets. They said that both of these projectiles are reflectible (the rockets lose guidance after they are reflected). I would expect that all projectiles are reflectible, and the only weapon I have a doubt about is the Burner's fireball splash.

I think it's more accurate to think of the Buckler not as a wall, but rather as a vertically held trampoline. :)


I asked a few questions about the Buckler one or two days ago, and both KP and Thrax were kind enough to answer them. Fyi,
here are KP's answers; http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6210057#6210057
and Thrax's; http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6214550#6214550
 
KineticPoet said:
Some good points in this thread.

You have 1 buckler ammo. After you throw it, you have 0. It'll travel into the world. During its flight you can control it. (You can actually draw all kinds of funky shapes while it travels through the air because it has a trail behind it). It boomerangs back to you. Currently it's only in the air for a couple seconds (making it best for mid-range combat). When and if you get it back, you have 1 ammo again. But if it gets caught up somewhere in the world, it bounces away and you're left with only 2 weapons (unless you take the time to go pick it up again). So it can be risky to throw it.

It's currently pretty hard to reflect projectiles. And, when thrown, the damage it inflicts is probably too high right now. And there's definitely something wrong with its knockback effect. If anyone tries the buckler at E3, please keep in mind that we need to do some more work on it.
Click to expand...

Wow, sounds cool. :)

KineticPoet said:
As for balance, consider this. Lights have a sniper rifle that has pinpoint accuracy and can inflict lots of damage, especially to the head (actually I think a head shot to another light is currently a one-shot-kill, but there is lots of room to tune this). Heavies have a mortar that has a huge radius of effect and is usually a one-shot-kill weapon. Now mediums have a buckler. It'll require balancing, sure, but that's the fun of adding new stuff.

The rocket pod is currently a powerful weapon as well. I've never used a weapon like it. And the burner has undergone some changes that I think you'll find to be interesting,
KP
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This is true, and something I had not thought about. I guess one of my biggest concerns came from the thought of having a player block all incoming fire while still being able to quickly switch weapons and return fire in the time between blocks, but it seems as if blocking won't be that easy :)

Another concern was the use and power of the Buckler in other game types such as Duel and Arena. I used to be an avid T1 Arena player, and the Buckler originally brought about thoughts of the Counter-Strike Riot Shield (which I thought was horrible), but as I said, perhaps it won't be as much of a problem as I had thought.

Thanks KP :)
 
To those of you who think the buckler's reflect is going to be overpowered, just look at UT's shield pack. Sure, it *sounds* overpowered, but in reality it sucks.
 
I guess I made this thread come out the wrong way. I really didn't mean to say that the Buckler is overpowered, even though that's practically the title of this thread. I haven't touched T:V yet, and I don't think most of us have even seen what the Buckler looks like on a player, myself included. In all honesty, I really do trust the developers on this game, and don't think that they would leave any weapon vastly overpowered. I guess I just wanted to debate the issue, and get possible answers and information on what exactly the Buckler's limitations are, and perhaps play a little devil's advocate. Or maybe it's just my communication skills that need to be worked on :p

Zoolooman said:
He should be able to block most of the fire, or there is no reason to even use the buckler except when capping or running away.
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I disagree. There are other situations where the Buckler would still be very useful, such as base defense against HO, through the use of the knockback effect. It also seems to be a potent offensive weapon (although it may be a risky one to use), and in it's current implementation, "the damage it inflicts is probably too high," according to KP.

Void|deadjawa said:
To those of you who think the buckler's reflect is going to be overpowered, just look at UT's shield pack. Sure, it *sounds* overpowered, but in reality it sucks.
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That's a possiblity, but also consider Counter-Strike's Riot Shield :p
 
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